Amateur 'tist - Needs pointers getting self into trance

by **Ladon** » January 18th, 2009, 6:10 pm

I've successfully hypnotized my wife, sent her through several really nice guided imagery sessions, worked with her on breast growth and fun stuff like that. She's confident that she's trancing nicely and really enjoys the process.

The problem is me. Many years ago I bought a full set of DPF CDs, (Complete baby-wet and messy when triggered). But I never got any results other than some level of relaxation. I get about the same results from some WMM files, but others just irritate me. The splices in EMG files almost always bring me to full awareness.

For some things, pretending it works seems to be the answer, working towards convincing my mind that it is indeed obeying the suggestion. Trouble is, the suggestions I want most are tough to imagine, and harder to pretend.

I understand the principle of hypnosis, distracting the critical factor (the minds filter) so the subconscious will accept the suggestions more readily. I am a very Word- oriented person, I speed read and retain while still being aware of errors. I tend to notice when the Voice uses negative statements (you can't, you don't) and it bothers me enough to attract my attention.

Another thing that has tended to get in the way is my imagination. I usually agine in words, I'm a writer by nature, so when asked to visualize things, I get stuck.

I'm going to try recording a few scripts for myself, and throw in some of the deepening files here, I like Bubbles in particular, and try to listen to them every night.

by **MacGyver** » January 18th, 2009, 7:49 pm

i am curious, you say you are a writer, have you written anything that can paint pictures in peoples heads? and if so, do you actually see a picture in your head before you write? if so, then you may just need to work on visualizing.

i can form a picture in my head, and eventhough it is not always lit very well or may just be image flashes, when i describe what i see in my head, others see, hear, feel, touch, taste, and sometimes even smell what i am describing, some even feel as if they are actually there and forget that i am standing next to them telling them this stuff, LOL i am going to give you an example of what i am saying.

at the last place i worked, i described one of my trips to the beach at saint george island in florida, the guy zoned out while i was describing it, then all the sudden he told me i had to shut up and he had to get something to drink so he could get the salt out of his mouth.

i have been asked just how in the world do i paint pictures in peoples heads like that, what is my secret, how do i do it? my reply is, first, i paint the pictures in my head, then describe what i see, hear, touch, taste, smell, and even what i feel sometimes.

eventhough i can make people experience things just by describing what i see in my head, myself, i still need to work with visualization, and i think EMG has a file on this site that should help if ya care to try it, other than that, the onyl other thing i can think of, if your woman has a voice you like, next time you put her under, give her suggestions to be able to put you under and to do the induction to your liking and all and see what happens.

by **cardigan** » January 18th, 2009, 11:32 pm

A lot of people have problems achieving results with certain files. This can be down to many, many different things. But it can also be something as simple as - your subconscious is afraid to let you follow the suggestions. So nothing ever happens. You need to bypass the critical factor of the conscious mind. It will only allow suggestions that it likes and that it is certain will work to enter your subconscious and do the reprogramming.

A thing like having yourself become messy goes against possibly years of potty training when you were an infant. You had a lot of positive reinforcement when you did it correct and possibly a lot of negative things when you didn't. And so deep down in our minds we have a lot of programming that points to being able to not use the diaper but instead wait until we can get to a potty as good. It brings mommy's reward with it automatically, and it's a very powerful programming. So being able to erase that isn't easy. We see ourselves as "big boys or girls" when we succeed and little, disgusting babies, when we don't. So erasing that exact programming might be virtually impossible for many.

Cardigan

by **Ladon** » January 19th, 2009, 9:50 am

Mac:

Actually, that's the thing, I don't usually paint a picture in my own mind first, it just comes to me in words, describing the scene, like reading it in a book.

I really got in to Blink's Induction, it was outright great how I was taken into the story. Rather than accepting direct suggestions, I found myself relaxing when he spoke of someone relaxing, and feeling sensations he spoke about in the narrative. I love how he often said 'I don't know what that means, but I think you do' and such. All I know is I didn't feel the need to listen intently, or to actively try to imagine the words, or find my mind thinking of work or this or that, I was listening without intending to.

The alarm on my MP3 player chimed loudly in the middle of one play through, and sat me almost bolt-upright, as I was quite content with Blink's soothing voice until that moment. :p

Cardigan:

By the way, I like your work here, I used your Deep Trance just this morning. I agree it is probably near impossible, but because it is only nearly impossible, it must be possible.

In the past, I was wearing 24/7 and actively trying to become incontinent, but there was some unexpected financial trouble which prevented diapers from being a priority, and though I'd been wearing for almost six months, I had only a little trouble getting back to 'normal'. I am able to thoroughly enjoy using my diapers or pants for anything that I need to 'do', pretty much effortlessly. What I really desire is for my wife to be in control of when that happens, and to know that even if I wanted to clamp down and hold it, I couldn't.

The script I'm writing uses a technique I read about on willdissolver.multiply.com. I liked it because he regularly asks the subject (while in trance) "Would you like that?" or "Would that feel good?" or "Do you understand?", and if the subconscious has reservations, supposedly its easier to work with it this way.

Wow, I rambled that time. Anyway, I wonder if it would work to 'get around' the potty-training issue by using a virtual device. What I mean is: not trying to forget the training that is so firmly ingrained, but giving the subject a way to counteract it by imagining a device that would prevent that training from being effective, much like a real catheter would bypass the bladder's external urinary sphincter and allow unhindered voiding. That's basically what I want, after all, the sudden and unavoidable feeling that those muscles (bladder and bowel sphincters) won't respond, or that they aren't effective any more. I might still 'know how' they work, but can't get them to stop the inevitable.

Anyway, thanks for your replies, I'm planning to keep it up with the inductions for a few weeks, at least, not trying ANY trigger until then unless I know I can obey 100%, (in other words, it won't require me to feel things or not feel things, or do things I can't already do) and any trigger I get will get my 100% full attention, whether the post-hypnotic suggestions are actually working or not, I'm going to pretend I HAVE to do what I'm told. Maybe once that is easy enough, I'll move on to the tougher stuff, once my mind gets used to doing what its told.

by **whatthe75** » January 19th, 2009, 5:12 pm

I think one of the problems you are having here is that you are not a visual person.Each people represent their thoughts in most of the five senses,but we each have a preferred system.You are obviously not a visual person and it would be a lot easier if you had the files written using words in your specific rep system.

From your explanation it SOUNDS like you are a very auditory or sound orientated person.The fact that the changes in EMG's files were enough to distract you means i would guess you are almost a total auditory person ( most people have overlap).

So whilst you read this and notice the sounds around you,and hear the tone of your breathing,you can allow the voice inside your mind to become a soothing whisper speaking to you just one word.....soften.
If this rings true to you let me know.

by **Ladon** » January 19th, 2009, 8:10 pm

You might be on the right track, though there are some things that run contrary to your hypothesis, WhatThe75.

1: I am a voracious reader, both online and in print. After a moment's thought, I wonder if my 'inner voice' is sort of 'translating' the text I'm reading and it ends up processing as an auditory sense?

2: I am actually in graphic design by trade, and like to *think* I'm a decent artist in various formats. Mostly, though, I like to write.

But on the other hand, it would point to a few things I've found to be true...

1: I have trouble listening to a speaker in a classroom setting, but I am able to work effectively even with a complicated audio drama on my headphones. (I think the visual element of watching the speaker might be the issue here)

2: I tend to pick up sounds or patterns that others don't perceive. The high-pitch, quiet whistle of the pilot light in the heater, the harmonic hum of the heat sink on my CPU, etc.

3: I'm better off with clear instructions than a picture or demonstration, any time.

The last paragraph of your post was interesting, I wonder if I would be a good candidate for an IM session? I used to be involved in a large online ageplay roleplaying site and chat sessions would quickly become very real for me. Hmmm...I've got a link for a text-based hypno-vacation, it might be worth looking at. I'll post my results later.

by **whatthe75** » January 20th, 2009, 4:28 pm

Ladon wrote:You might be on the right track, though there are some things that run contrary to your hypothesis, WhatThe75.

1: I am a voracious reader, both online and in print. After a moment's thought, I wonder if my 'inner voice' is sort of 'translating' the text I'm reading and it ends up processing as an auditory sense?

2: I am actually in graphic design by trade, and like to *think* I'm a decent artist in various formats. Mostly, though, I like to write.
.

A double contradiction which helps my hypothesis even further.

1:My "inner voice" is translating.That is definately a sign that your auditory based.Inner voice is auditory.

2:"Think" is another predicate used by auditorily based people.

Another one for you to ponder.When you are in a classroom listening to your lecture.Do you find it easier to understand the lecturer when you are not looking at them directly? Test it?

by **Ladon** » January 20th, 2009, 11:25 pm

Yes indeed, I am much more able to understand and retain a talk (sermon-style) when my eyes are closed or I occupy my hands instead of trying to "pay attention." Hmm, my teachers just said I was easily distracted.

I hadn't ever thought about it before, but you make an interesting point. Not everyone thinks in words? I guess someone born deaf would not think in words, and I guess some people must think primarily in math. Obviously we are able to think before we learn words. I've noticed its almost as though I'm speaking in my own head.

Another observation: I often listen to audio-drama on my iPod, and while I can work effectively and much more efficiently while doing so, I cannot read with any depth while listening. I am still aware of the sound of the office door (a quiet thump when it closes) alerting me to a customer or boss coming in, the phone, the machines running or not, but I cannot read anything more than a few sentences and listen at the same time. The same is not true of music.

I am also highly attuned to music. I was incubated to the sounds of barbershop harmony in the womb, via trans-belly headphones. I can harmonize to almost anything with a melody, and I can play several instruments by ear. Interestingly, I will find myself humming a march when I am around a machine with a strong repeating rythym, and I tend to find myself stepping in time to any music I hear, even if I don't *like* it. I still remember a section of the snare drum part to a song I played in junior high, and I didn't play the drums.

Back to the subject of reading-based hypnosis, I read through that trance, and I started to trance, but it was distracting to scroll through the page. The suggestions were focused on creating a memory of a pleasant vacation during the previous night. I'm not sure if the memory of the trance session is all there is.

by **whatthe75** » January 21st, 2009, 1:57 am

Yes many people and teachers alike get frustrated when someone is not looking at them when they talk,they think they are not being listened too but it is in fact the opposite..But auditory people ( myself included) find it easier to understand when our ears are facing the person, so they are in fact giving their full attention.Just in their own way.

Well at least that is sorted out now you can move on knowing this.

An induction which focuses on sounds and the like would suit you well.

Another question.Which of these two do you find easiest to access ( i think i know the answer but lets check.) A feeling or a visualisation?

by **Reboot2099** » January 21st, 2009, 4:01 am

I don t want to take over the thread or something, but I just wanted to say I have the same problem as Ladon, although not as much. I still understand better when I m looking at a teacher while listening.

But still, I always think in words. I never think in pictures. And I do have a CONSTANT internal dialogue. Like I m making up stories, alternate stories of what happened or could have happened during the day. Yeah, I m weird :) I thought everybody was like that until a couple months ago when I heard a therapist say the opposite.

I can take a picture of someone or something mentally and remember it quite a lot when I close my eyes, but imagining something I didn t necessarily saw, or a moving scene, especially if I am part of it, I cannot. I know, it takes practice, but it s kinda frustrating when most files ask you to imagine things but you can t. Ah well, I ll get it eventually. After all, I can dream, can t I? :)

by **whatthe75** » January 21st, 2009, 4:38 am

First of all it is not a problem.It is just the way your mind represents things.You are not weird either.No two brians are the same.

Curious: what are you, or were you seeing a therapist about ( i hope they were not saying something bad about the way you think)?

by **Ladon** » January 23rd, 2009, 1:24 pm

In response to your question about visualization, neither is easy for me, but it is easier to feel "the warm soft sand" in Blink Basic than to imagine a beach.

by **Calimore** » January 23rd, 2009, 6:34 pm

..."Ah well, I ll get it eventually. After all, I can dream, can t I?" Smile

I loved the last line of your post, Reboot - yes, you CAN always dream, and do, all the time.

I, too, am very word oriented with an excellent auditory memory but, even after some practice, still lacking in visualization skills. Not to worry - our wonderful minds are so very adaptive, all it takes is some work to develop our ability to visualize more vividly.

The easiest way to start is through simple guided meditation. Finding an exercise that first helps you to create an inner landscape and then takes you lazily exploring shouldn't be a hard task for you to accomplish, if you like, and could be a fun place to begin.

If you are looking for more of a challenge, try hypnosis files that focus on lucid dreaming, then slowly start taking control of your dreams, not controlling how they flow but instead learning to 'turn up' the detail, the color, the brightness and even how real the experience seems. Given time and practice this exercise should allow you to visualize nearly anything in brilliant detail.

Lying in between in difficulty are hypnofiles like TrigExperience, which helps you to better focus, visualize and eventually fully experience what a fictional character is going through while in a state of trance.

Final word is, and I say this all the time - 'Practice makes perfect.' I should put it in my sig, it's so true! If the files you listen to are properly made, you really want the results they bring and you listen to each at least once or twice a day, after about 20 or 30 times they're probably going to work so long as you can just learn to let go, listen, and follow a simple set of instructions.

If I had only known that hypnosis was just that simple, I'd have dived into this YEARS ago. :) :)

by **Blink** » January 23rd, 2009, 7:27 pm

Ladon wrote:In response to your question about visualization, neither is easy for me, but it is easier to feel "the warm soft sand" in Blink Basic than to imagine a beach.

All of the experience you need is already in your memory and can be processed effectively through your imagination.

With regard to the warm, soft sand, the color of the sand might or might not make a difference to the texture. As you consider the ease with which it compresses and the texture of the grains, you might begin to notice whether the sand is pure white or some shade of beige. Beaches are the site most associated with sand. On some of them there is sufficient mineral content to make the sand pink and there are beaches made of black sand from volcanic rock. I can't even begin to imagine the difference in texture, heat retention, compressibility or other qualities. There might be a difference in pitch as they sprinkle, but that's not important to me.

While you think about the sand, if you--more than most--might notice the sound of the waves. As you listen, you might begin to hear, inside them, a piece of music that you haven't heard in a long, long time. Possibly since you were "this many" or even younger. And at that age, there's one time that you're almost sure to hear music every day.

Words, words, words. The keys here are "nice," "soft," and "warm."

Relax. Wiggle your toes. You're doing fine.

-- Blink

by **Blink** » January 23rd, 2009, 7:42 pm

Reboot2099 wrote:But still, I always think in words. I never think in pictures. And I do have a CONSTANT internal dialogue. Like I m making up stories, alternate stories of what happened or could have happened during the day. Yeah, I m weird :) I thought everybody was like that until a couple months ago when I heard a therapist say the opposite.

I respect your therapist's right to be wrong. I hope you do, too.

I'm fascinated by your internal dialogue. My guess, based on the way you describe it, is that it's more often a monologue: a constant stream of comments and responses to everything you're encountering and observing.

If it really is constant, then I expect you've habituated to it. That is, I doubt you notice it much, except when it's interfering with something. If you don't mind, I'd like to direct your attention to it.

If you pay attention to the voice, you'll notice the qualities of it. It might be a male voice or it might be a female voice. It might be your voice. It might be any sort of voice. I wonder, though, if you can imagine it as the deep, smooth voice of the voiceover artist for movie trailers. Deep, deep, deep voice. Silky smooth. You might have another example in mind, but I expect you know what I'm thinking of. And there's no need for it to be booming. You can turn the volume down a bit. It's inside your head, after all. No need for shouting. As a matter of fact, you can drop the volume considerably and still understand very comfortably.

Oh, and you might be able to imagine that deep, silky, soft voice coming from a reel-to-reel tape. One of the old machines with two spools for magnetic tape, one on each side, and the rubber rollers and capstan and read/write head in between. Big, chunky controls. Big plastic reels spinning silently, dark tape moving from one to the other, perfect sound coming out of the speakers. As you listen to the voice and imagine the reel-to-reel machine, you can imagine reaching out very gently and touching one of the reels with a fingertip and feeling... the machine... slow... down....

And it can slow all the way down, now.

Just something for you to think about.

-- Blink

by **MacGyver** » January 23rd, 2009, 7:50 pm

ladon, i dont feel the sand, i see the beach, sand, water, people, even a big sand castle.

blink, i can sometimes hear diffeent voices sayin things in my mind, the voice over guy all the way to a sexy feminine voice, and i sometimes hear thoughts in the voices of cartoon characters.

i still think i am pretty weird. LOL :P

by **whatthe75** » January 23rd, 2009, 11:10 pm

MacGyver wrote:ladon, i dont feel the sand, i see the beach, sand, water, people, even a big sand castle.

Thats the whole point of the questions i was asking ladon.Each person can represent their thoughts in different ways.So to effectively access or change them thoughts it is a lot easier in using the same way to represent them.Ladon is a more sound orientated person.You are obviously more visual.

SO for you it would make more sense to start an induction getting you to imagine seeing the beach and the soft blue colours of the ocean as it contrasts with the white sand as you see yourself totally relaxed on that beach.See how you are breathing and how totally relaxed you are,and the brighter and more focused you make that picture now, the more it allows you to deepen your relaxtion.

Blink was giving some good suggestions as to how a person like ladon who is sound orientated can start to change his own state or level of relaxation by using ladons way of representing his thoughts.

MacGyver wrote:i still think i am pretty weird. LOL :P

That has to be the line that every person or client i have ever worked on says.I always reply with "I'd much rather be weird and interesting than normal and boring".You can see that clearly now cant you?

by **Ladon** » January 24th, 2009, 11:37 am

Yeah, what exactly is normal anyway? Any why is it that many people who want to be 'different' all act very much the same?

Blink! I'm rather surprised to see a post from you, as I thought you had stopped reading WMM, your last post was October. Your Basic induction encouraged me to study Dr. Erickson in more detail, and I'm currently some chapters in to his Exploratory Casebook and Time Distortion in Hypnosis books, quite enjoying both. Though the more I read them, the more I'm convinced that I have not experienced more than a very light trance, but I could be wrong. I may need to contact a real hypnotist, either online or in person, to be sure.

I suppose it doesn't matter, and I should just relax and enjoy it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) many of the things I would like to accomplish with hypnosis may be best accomplished in a deep trance. Then again, I may be wrong, but a recording won't be able to work with me and help me find the correct answer will it?

One example I found most interesting in "Time Distortion" was that of a woman he hypnotized, who was convinced she could not be hypnotized. He suggested at one point that her subconscious would be able to demonstrate her ability to trance, but only to the audience, she would be unaware of the signal. Her arm later began to levitate, though she was still emphatically stating she was not in trance. Somnambulism is fun, isn't it?

by **Blink** » January 24th, 2009, 12:26 pm

MacGyver wrote:blink, i can sometimes hear diffeent voices sayin things in my mind, the voice over guy all the way to a sexy feminine voice, and i sometimes hear thoughts in the voices of cartoon characters.

i still think i am pretty weird. LOL :P

You have a lot of voices to choose from. That's great. One of them is better at trance than all the others. That's your inner hypnotist. (Bet you didn't even know you had one.)

I don't know what he or she has in mind for you, but I'd advise you to listen very carefully. There's a good chance that your inner hypnotist is better than anyone here on WMM. When you play any of the files you find here, let your inner hypnotist do a better version of it just for you, all the way down inside your head. I expect that you won't even need to prompt your inner hypnotist after a while. You'll just read a description of a file you like and he or she will know exactly what to do.

Oh, and "weird" is a synonym for "uncanny." Both of 'em indicate the presence of supernatural forces. There's great power in weirdness. Try very hard to use your weird only for good. You mustn't harm the normals. They're doing the best they can.

-- Blink

by **Blink** » January 24th, 2009, 1:08 pm

Ladon wrote:Yeah, what exactly is normal anyway? Any why is it that many people who want to be 'different' all act very much the same?

"Normal" is a setting on your washing machine.

It is interesting that the rebels all seem to run away from the rules in the same direction. How did the Anarchists get consensus on the circle-A? The prosocials form groups to enhance survival. The antisocials exploit those groups to enhance survival. Everyone needs a group.

Ladon wrote:Blink! I'm rather surprised to see a post from you, as I thought you had stopped reading WMM, your last post was October. Your Basic induction encouraged me to study Dr. Erickson in more detail, and I'm currently some chapters in to his Exploratory Casebook and Time Distortion in Hypnosis books, quite enjoying both. Though the more I read them, the more I'm convinced that I have not experienced more than a very light trance, but I could be wrong. I may need to contact a real hypnotist, either online or in person, to be sure.

I read along, but I'm selective about what I reply to. I took my turn at answering all the newbie questions and now my responses are alongside all the others in the archives.

I still take on the occasional odd project, but I haven't had the opportunity to get my sound equipment fixed, so I've been doing more text trance than anything else. Starting with someone who's new at trance and working to develop decent effects in a text medium does tend to make one focus a bit on the sensory submodalities and how they interact.

I've been extra quiet lately because I've been taking a beating at the office. I let myself get too busy, felt the effects of it, and finally put in a leave request which got signed without a thorough reading: two weeks off for me! After I've taken care of myself, I'll go back and take care of them again.

Depth of trance is a lot like relaxation. They're fun and they feel good, but they're not really necessary. If you're getting light trance, you can get everything you need. If you define trance as opening a channel of communication with your subconscious, then "depth" isn't really a relevant term. Relaxation isn't necessary, either. I'm already talking with your subconscious mind, right now. It's more communicative than your conscious mind thinks. Put down the Erickson and find a drawing of Freud's "cosmology" of the mind: the iceberg model. All of your perceived experience comes up from the bottom. You don't have any communication at all that isn't subconscious communication first. I thought it was helpful reading through the source literature on NLP, too. Bandler (and Grinder) are explicit about what Erickson does. You'll enjoy reading that. They had an interesting schtick for a while: one would assert that there is no such thing as trance and the other would assert that all communication is trance. If you can resolve that, you're there.

Ladon wrote:I suppose it doesn't matter, and I should just relax and enjoy it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) many of the things I would like to accomplish with hypnosis may be best accomplished in a deep trance. Then again, I may be wrong, but a recording won't be able to work with me and help me find the correct answer will it?

When you're ready to read the Erickson again, read what Mrs. Erickson wrote. She's got a published self-hypnosis method that would be useful for you. What she says about self-hypnosis is more valuable than her instructions for doing it.

Ladon wrote:One example I found most interesting in "Time Distortion" was that of a woman he hypnotized, who was convinced she could not be hypnotized. He suggested at one point that her subconscious would be able to demonstrate her ability to trance, but only to the audience, she would be unaware of the signal. Her arm later began to levitate, though she was still emphatically stating she was not in trance. Somnambulism is fun, isn't it?

It can be handy and uplifting. You might describe it as a natural high. It's one of those things that can automatically feel right. Any questions?

Not only is resistance futile, it's often humorous. It's often easier to get an arm levitation from someone who's "resistant" than it is do do a formal induction. Linear thinking in a 3-D world. André Maginot.

You're doing fine. Relax. Enjoy.

-- Blink

by **MacGyver** » January 24th, 2009, 6:18 pm

well, my inner hypnotist would be a sexy female voice, other thoughts have other voices, but my inner 'tist is still trying to convert the files i have been listening to into her voice. which might explain a dream i had a few months back though. back when i tried for a long tie to get the effects of the fembutt file, i was playing the body of that file in my sleep for a week or so, and there was this sexy lookin woman wearin a 2 peice bikini and she said the trigger phrase for the fembutt file, then laughed, and that was the last i saw her in my sleep.

i do try to use my weirdness for good, but i am not sure just how long i will be able to leave the normals alone. now, when i say weird, i mean weird, as far as i kow, i am the only person who has done this, the place i was working, i had to feed a noisy machine, it sounded like a family of rats was caught in the thing. from what i have been reading on this site, what i did was go into a trance, felt like i passed out and woke back up, anyways, i started concentrating on a song i liked that annoyed most of my co-workers. we were not to have any radios in the place, the song kept getting louder and louder to the point it was starting to hurt my ear drums. now, i dont know how to explain what happened next as i never thought the human body could do this. at break time, when i stopped the machine, the music was still blaring away in my ears, and the one woman who hated that song, came up and was looking for my radio, now i could not hear her and had to asked a couple times what she was saying, she wanted to break the cassette tape i had playing that song, she could hear the music but could not find a radio, the closer she got to me, the better she could hear the song. appearently, the music was actually coming out of my ears. now, it has alweays been to my understanding that the human ear is supposed to work like a microphone so you can hear, not put sound out like a speaker.

so, until i find or hear of someone else who has done this, i think i shall hold myself as being the weirdest of them all, LOL.

whatthe75, the sand was a dark tan, and the beach was one i had never been to and the poeple i have never before seen in my life, oh, and if i remember correct, not a cloud in the sky. i was under a the shade of a large palm tree. now, at the start of the induction, for some reason i am walking with some dude, then all the sudden, i get flashed to the beach.

now i never seem to make it more than about half way through before i am so relaxed i pass out and dont wake up till my alarm goes off, so, i believe the file is good for those who, like me, suffer from insomnia. i cant explain it but, the story is just so boring but for some reason i continue to listen waiting to hear more, it is as if i really really want to hear this boring stuff for some reason, imagine this, my waking mind says no, but my subconsious mind says, hey now, i want more, i am taking over and you cant stop me. does that one make any sense to ya?

by **Ladon** » January 30th, 2009, 9:45 am

Blink, you weren't kidding, Bandler & Grinder's Trance Formations is a fun read so far. I haven't opened anything but that and your Basic Induction in days. I am noticing many of the tools you use in that induction and what they call them, Stacking Realities, Embedded Commands, etc, and that's kinda fun too.

Actually the techniques you referred to regarding Mrs. Erickson are in Trance Formations, near the end. It sounds like they would be more effective than the self-hypnosis I've tried in the past, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet.

the human ear is supposed to work like a microphone so you can hear, not put sound out like a speaker.

Mac, I remember some material on this I read, but I don't recall where. They studied the 'ear clicks' of several groups of people, ear clicks being the sound your ear generates and can be recorded. Men had a different sort of clicks than women, but gay individuals seem to fall somewhere in the middle between the two heterosexual groups. Odd, eh? Anyway, I thought it applied. Perhaps you hallucinated her reaction to your inner music? :p Now there's a new definition for RADIOHEAD! :)

by **MacGyver** » January 30th, 2009, 6:38 pm

she asked me where the radio was as she said she could swear she heard that song playing, and wandered where the music was coming from. i cant explain it, all i know is that it had happened. it left me kinda weirded out for a good week. a couple of the other women just gave me these weird looks.

trust me, i was not trying to harm the normals, LOL.

by **Blink** » January 30th, 2009, 7:33 pm

Ladon wrote:Blink, you weren't kidding, Bandler & Grinder's Trance Formations is a fun read so far. I haven't opened anything but that and your Basic Induction in days. I am noticing many of the tools you use in that induction and what they call them, Stacking Realities, Embedded Commands, etc, and that's kinda fun too.

There seems to be a natural progression from the more accessible NLP stuff to the less accessible NLP stuff to the source material. If you've got access to a good university library or if your local public library has a generous Interlibrary Loan program, you can save a ton of money and time. I understand that there are PDF copies of lots of the NLP books floating around. I don't know if they're legal copies, but they're there.

The fun thing about the language patterns described in those books is that as soon as you start noticing them, you start noticing them EVERYWHERE. The other thing is that when you catch someone who's either fresh out of an NLP training or somewhat less than thoroughly skilled in the application of the stuff, you can catch all their "covert" tricks. If you should happen to find someone coughing or clearing his or her throat to set anchors--a tired practice fifteen years ago--I ask you to say, "Mm. Sounds like you've got a little Bandler stuck in your throat." You can then shake your head a little and tsk. Whether you ask how it tastes or advise them to spit it out is something I'll leave to your judgment.

I won't go to much into the relationship between Dr. Erickson and the founders of NLP beyond saying that Erickson referred to the pair as Bandit and Swindler.

Ladon wrote:Actually the techniques you referred to regarding Mrs. Erickson are in Trance Formations, near the end. It sounds like they would be more effective than the self-hypnosis I've tried in the past, but I haven't had a chance to try them out yet.

OK, see, I can't remember if that book has the whole thing or not. I remember reading it an a journal article, but my memory can't be trusted. Just in case you haven't got the part I was referring to along with her instructions, I'll give up my coy routine for a moment and just tell you. She said that self-hypnosis works 'cause your subconscious mind already knows what you need and how to give it to you. All you need to do is enter the right state for your subconscious to do the work. Just get into trance for a little while every so often and you'll tend toward getting where you need to be.

Of course, she said that in the context of psychotherapeutic change, not the stuff we do 'round here. For the record, Erickson would have wanted this place and others like it shut down. He believed that hypnosis should only be used for therapy. That's why so much of his stuff is so hard to come by: he put it all in the academic journals and restricted as much as possible to licensed professionals. It takes some digging to get to it, but it's worthwhile.

I've been resisting the discussion of the ear as a speaker. I can't stand it anymore. With Erickson's work in mind, I'd suggest that the lady who heard the music might have been having her own trance experience. If you find someone who's moving as if listening to music, head nodding a rhythm, body swaying, arms moving, feet moving along almost as if dancing, and the person is subvocalizing as if not quite singing along, and you're used to that person playing a piece of music, and you know the piece of music very well yourself, it's not such a stretch to hallucinate the sounds. That's my 2¢, anyway.

-- Blink

by **MacGyver** » January 30th, 2009, 8:24 pm

or could it be that somehow i managed to make her hear that song telepathically without knowing what i had done as it was a song i loved to play just to aggrivate her? but i am still curious why it was so loud as if i were at a rock concert.

must use my weirdness for good not evil
must use my weirdness for good not evil
must use, oh forget it, i am not gonna take the time to repeat that 100 times.

by **whatthe75** » January 31st, 2009, 4:24 am

Blink wrote:There seems to be a natural progression from the more accessible NLP stuff to the less accessible NLP stuff to the source material. If you've got access to a good university library or if your local public library has a generous Interlibrary Loan program, you can save a ton of money and time. I understand that there are PDF copies of lots of the NLP books floating around. I don't know if they're legal copies, but they're there.

The new bandler book(under the same name) which came out a month or two ago is just as good.It pretty much covers the same stuff but with some extra bits too and some good examples.

I would thoroughly recommend it

by **Ladon** » February 9th, 2009, 9:40 am

Erickson referred to the pair as Bandit and Swindler.

Actually I'm not surprised, but he did say of them that they knew how to teach what he did much better than he could himself. He knew what he did, but not how to explain it.

Erickson might have been against using hypnosis for the sort of things we do here, but it seems to me that he used it occasionally for fun of his own. I remember reading that his colleagues became wary of shaking his hand, unless he assured them he'd not put them in trance.

by **Blink** » February 11th, 2009, 7:00 pm

Ladon wrote:Erickson might have been against using hypnosis for the sort of things we do here, but it seems to me that he used it occasionally for fun of his own. I remember reading that his colleagues became wary of shaking his hand, unless he assured them he'd not put them in trance.

Erickson got very proficient in giving professional demonstrations. There are accounts of him picking out an individual in an audience and, purely by using embedded commands, having that person go into trance and come to sit in a chair onstage.

There's another story, told by Bandler, about Erickson's trouble with the medical licensing board. According to the story, they'd taken exception to his work as a charlatan using hypnosis tricks on his patients and decided to lift his license to practice medicine. He was called in to testify, which he did.

Bandler said that he met one of the board members some years later and asked her how the proceeding had gone. She thought for a moment, her facial features flattened and she got a distant look. Then she smiled and said, "I don't remember.... But I know that Dr. Erickson is a very nice man."

-- Blink

by **MacGyver** » February 11th, 2009, 9:26 pm

he must have shaken her hand, LOL :twisted:

by **Ladon** » February 16th, 2009, 11:00 am

Possibly, or he was able, through his testimony, to entrance at least a portion of those present in the courtroom. One of his many talents was the ability to induce a trance using almost anything, his posture, breathing, speech, motions, et cetera. He certainly was no charlatan in the traditional sense, I'd say had the grasp on hypnosis that Mozart had on music, it was completely natural for him in every way.

In a related but separate thought, going back to the visual/auditory discussion, I've had a thought that may work for me, but I'll have to experiment. I said earlier that if I am reading something, I may notice the sounds I hear, but I don't process speech well, if at all, when I'm reading, it goes 'in one ear and out the other.'

Maybe I'll choose a file with results that would be interesting, discernible, and relatively easy to reproduce (at least, results I think would be easy to do). I'd like to try a few experiments:

Listen while reading something technical (hypnosis book, NLP, etc)
Listen while reading fantasy material (LOTR, erotica, Sci-Fi)
Listen in one ear while playing a game (Oblivion, Half-Life)

I believe the first one may work the best, but fantasy might surprise me. I'd like to see if the words would 'slip into my subconscious' or just be ignored altogether. I'm not sure if I'll be able to try it in the near future, but once I do, I'll document the attempt here.

Amateur 'tist - Needs pointers getting self into trance

Amateur 'tist - Needs pointers getting self into trance

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