Why the against button?

[BillionSix]

I noticed that a lot of files get votes against them. Why do this?
If I like a file, I vote for it. I would only vote against it if the file seems dangerous.
Even if I don't care for the file, other people might enjoy it, so I just leave it alone.

Just wondering.

Brian

[PieGirl]

I have the exact same thoughts as you. I see it as quite malicious and just plain inconsiderate when people shoot other files down... I don't know what it does for them. I imagine there's some kind of Haha-im-ruining your chances satisfaction.

Here, I already made a thread for this, with a response from EMG....
http://warpmymind.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5568

But it would be nice to see the members' opinions too.. And see if any of the against-voters dare stand up and explain their choice.
I mean seriously, even though the masses mostly vote for wetting, feminization and orgasm files.. I still thing WWM should cater to the minority too... Cos even though there is a minority who want other files as well, I doubt it's extremely small... And there is some basis for those wishes.

[BillionSix]

Maybe I am overly optimistic, but I don't think a lot of it is malicious. Just not really thinking too hard about it.
"Well, I want this one. I'll click 'for', this one doesn't do it for me, I'll click 'against'."
You know? Just giving their opinion, and not realizing that they are shooting someone's idea down.

Personally, I would only click 'against' if the idea was potentially dangerous, or blatantly unrealistic.

Brian

[MacGyver]

i always thought of it as "for" would interest me and "against"
would be of no interest to me.

[diapers_forever]

[quote="MacGyver"]i always thought of it as "for" would interest me and "against"
would be of no interest to me.[/quote]

Yeah. Personally, that's why I think femme files get rated almost always higher than diaper files.

I personally vote down things like "That's a waste of his time, because no one but you is interested in that." Namely, files like "fuck zombie", the lovely file that makes you rape people.

Because that's a GOOD IDEA.

[BillionSix]

[quote="diapers_forever"][quote="MacGyver"]i always thought of it as "for" would interest me and "against"
would be of no interest to me.[/quote]

Yeah. Personally, that's why I think femme files get rated almost always higher than diaper files.

I personally vote down things like "That's a waste of his time, because no one but you is interested in that." Namely, files like "fuck zombie", the lovely file that makes you rape people.

Because that's a GOOD IDEA.[/quote]

Honestly, that was mine. But I didn't intend it to be for public triggering. Mainly a game at home, around a lover that you would trust. Maybe I forgot to mention that. My bad.

Brian

[diapers_forever]

[quote="BillionSix"][quote="diapers_forever"][quote="MacGyver"]i always thought of it as "for" would interest me and "against"
would be of no interest to me.[/quote]

Yeah. Personally, that's why I think femme files get rated almost always higher than diaper files.

I personally vote down things like "That's a waste of his time, because no one but you is interested in that." Namely, files like "fuck zombie", the lovely file that makes you rape people.

Because that's a GOOD IDEA.[/quote]

Honestly, that was mine. But I didn't intend it to be for public triggering. Mainly a game at home, around a lover that you would trust. Maybe I forgot to mention that. My bad.

Brian[/quote]

I might have just skimmed it, but I swear it was a curse. That's why I rated it down.

Woops.

Ah well, anyway, my point still stands.

[Zombie_Genocide]

Honestly, I think the Against serves it purpous. Not as much as an opinion, but rather, a safeguard to potentailly dangerous files, because some people may not see that at first, until others spot it.

[lettuce]

I think the most important reason is that it adds a factor that obscures the previous trend of oldest files always having most votes, which I found very noticeable with the old system. Now the competition between files is more about appealing to many people without offending others, instead of just having stayed on the list for long enough to have gathered up lots of votes.

Though the list still stays a little static since no one are making the files on the top of the list.

[davelowe1977]

Personally, I value the comments about the files more than I do the votes.

In fact, I would propose an overhaul of the system whereby both voting and an element of comment could be combined.

Instead of the current system, why not have an 'opinion' button instead. This would redirect to a subform, in which the member could rate the file according to several criteria on a 1 - 5 scale or similar.

A couple of questions could be asked such as:

1. This file did what it said it would do: 1 2 3 4 5
2. This file was effective for me: 1 2 3 4 5
3. I would recommend this file for others: 1 2 3 4 5

etc.

The information from cumulative opinions could then be summarized next to the file name.

Obviously some consensus would need to be reached over the wording of the questions, but at least this system would get more accurate feedback from listeners.

[MasterHMH]

Without an against possibility, the voting page is really just a screaming match of people chanting file names. Since the files are not competing directly, there needs to be a way to accurately gauge support from the userbase. Like somebody said before, if it is a collective tally, all the oldest suggestions are guarenteed to be at the top.

I don't have a problem using the "against" button at all. If a file interests me, because I may have fun using it or because it may be worthwhile to me, I will support it. Otherwise, I vote against it. That's basic democracy. Only so many files get made, so it makes equal sense to bolster the statistics of files you want and to detract from those you have no use for. It isn't malicious in any way; it is just an attempt from the voter to get the most he or she can out of a system that is ultimately designed to benefit them.

However, the argument is also not exceptionally relevant: Ultimately, the hypnotists will primarily record files that they find interesting. I thought the Panty-Wetting Princess file was an interesting idea, so I submitted it to the voting page, and it was recorded in literally two days. Obviously, the artist was interested, and thus made the file despite basically no input of votes.

That's what it comes down to in the end: What the content creators of the site choose to make. How much a certain file is wanted is a factor for some, sure; EMG makes more money off of Premium memberships that way (not to suggest it is his only motive). When the sun goes down, and the tape starts rolling, I'd say that any hypnotist is equally likely to create "Enchantments" (score +172) as they are to create "Sycophantic Banker" (score -6/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i).

[BillionSix]

[quote="MasterHMH":e8a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i3cc]I don't have a problem using the "against" button at all. If a file interests me, because I may have fun using it or because it may be worthwhile to me, I will support it. Otherwise, I vote against it. That's basic democracy. Only so many files get made, so it makes equal sense to bolster the statistics of files you want and to detract from those you have no use for. It isn't malicious in any way; it is just an attempt from the voter to get the most he or she can out of a system that is ultimately designed to benefit them.[/quote:e8a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i3cc]

I am going to go ahead and disagree with you.

To me, the word "against" means, well... against. Let's say someone has a jam fetish, and creates an entry that involves having a vivid dream about strawberry jam. Not my thing, but to each his own.

Now, you come along and say, "Not my thing," and click "against."

"Why did you click against? Are you morally opposed to strawberry jam?"
"No, but it's not my thing."
"Are you allergic? Are you afraid that allergic people might listen and have psychosomatic allergy attacks?"
"No, don't be silly."

My point is, I only click against, if I am totally against it. If I think it is dangerous or criminal.
I have no idea why someone would want to be a sycophantic banker, but hey, peoples' fantasies are often very specific, and if someone out there is bored enough to make it, good for them. I am not going to rain on their parade.

When I go to the voting page, the vast majority of the entries are unclicked, because I have no interest in them one way or the other.

When I see a lot of "Against" votes on something I posted, I wonder why. "Why are they opposed to this? It's harmless!"

[zapnosis]

BillionSix, I think you have a good point. One side-effect of any democratic process is the ease with which minority groups or opinions can be ignored, regardless of their merits. Over-use of the "against" button can exaggerate this effect. And lets be honest, if people only ever played to the majority then this site wouldn't exist.

Of course the choice to make the file is with the hypnotist, but everyone likes their work to be used and appreciated and the votes will count for something. In any case, personally I think that it is a mistake to encourage competition in the hypnofetish community - celebrating diversity and variety is what it should be about. That's just my say...

[EMG]

Actually, I tend to keep files that have overly strong responses. If lots of people hate it that means they have an opinion.

The files that get dropped are the ones people don't care about ::EG::

[Score_Under]

As a minor improvement, you could just have a "For", "Against", and "Don't care/Not interested". There's some really interesting files there that are voted "against" just because they're not sexual to the extreme, or because people aren't interested.

For example, "MP3 Included"... just because it doesn't pertain to some random fetish, people vote against it. It's a genuinely good idea.

[MasterHMH]

[quote="BillionSix"][quote="MasterHMH"]I don't have a problem using the "against" button at all. If a file interests me, because I may have fun using it or because it may be worthwhile to me, I will support it. Otherwise, I vote against it. That's basic democracy. Only so many files get made, so it makes equal sense to bolster the statistics of files you want and to detract from those you have no use for. It isn't malicious in any way; it is just an attempt from the voter to get the most he or she can out of a system that is ultimately designed to benefit them.[/quote]

I am going to go ahead and disagree with you.

To me, the word "against" means, well... against. Let's say someone has a jam fetish, and creates an entry that involves having a vivid dream about strawberry jam. Not my thing, but to each his own.

Now, you come along and say, "Not my thing," and click "against."

"Why did you click against? Are you morally opposed to strawberry jam?"
"No, but it's not my thing."
"Are you allergic? Are you afraid that allergic people might listen and have psychosomatic allergy attacks?"
"No, don't be silly."

My point is, I only click against, if I am totally against it. If I think it is dangerous or criminal.
I have no idea why someone would want to be a sycophantic banker, but hey, peoples' fantasies are often very specific, and if someone out there is bored enough to make it, good for them. I am not going to rain on their parade.

When I go to the voting page, the vast majority of the entries are unclicked, because I have no interest in them one way or the other.

When I see a lot of "Against" votes on something I posted, I wonder why. "Why are they opposed to this? It's harmless!"[/quote]

Well, all you are really arguing here is semantics. It doesn't really matter what the terms used are, the fact of the matter is: if rising your desires higher in the "ranking" theoretically increases their chances of coming to fruition, then there is no reason not to downvote files that you don't care to see made one way or the other.

You see voting against as a more serious action than I believe you should. You aren't "raining on someone's parade" or denouncing their fetish, you are simply saying that it is not your fetish, and thus you would rather have something that directly appeals to you made. However, as I postured earlier, it's basically an irrelevant practice, so I do not understand why so much discussion is to be had on it.

In light of all this attention, maybe we should just change the semantics of the voting page; since "for" and "against" are apparently loaded words, why not make it a question of "Would you want this file to be made?" Offer "Yes" and "No," and then everyone can be happy, considering that the vast majority of the voters tend to read it that way. It may also make some people more comfortable with voting in general, and perhaps we will get more input that way.

[CuteLittleFaery]

[quote]It doesn't really matter what the terms used are, the fact of the matter is: if rising your desires higher in the "ranking" theoretically increases their chances of coming to fruition, then there is no reason not to downvote files that you don't care to see made one way or the other.[/quote]
Then again, there's no pressing reason to vote against those files either, particularly when there are other files you'd much rather remain at the bottom of the list.

Though it isn't readily apparent, there are actually three voting options on the voting page: a for vote, an against vote, and no vote at all. The distinction between the latter two options is not moot; being able to vote against a file or simply not vote for it allows a greater level of precision in measuring the opinion of the WarpMyMind voters. Imagine a third button sandwiched between For and Against, "No Opinion". Polls in which all questions must be answered often have such an option, but here it would be redundant, as some of us already make use of the ability to abstain from the vote.

If all voters were expected to vote against all files they chose to not vote for, then we wouldn't need the option to vote against files in the first place. Whether or not we have the Against option, choosing to not vote for a file will ultimately push it down in the rankings.

[Zombie_Genocide]

Your opinion on this file?

[color=blue]Make it![/color]
[color=red]Nah. Not for me.[/color]
[color=olive]Possiblly Dangerous![/color]

[MasterHMH]

[quote="CuteLittleFaery":1e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i62ad5][quote:1e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i62ad5]It doesn't really matter what the terms used are, the fact of the matter is: if rising your desires higher in the "ranking" theoretically increases their chances of coming to fruition, then there is no reason not to downvote files that you don't care to see made one way or the other.[/quote:1e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i62ad5]
If all voters were expected to vote against all files they chose to not vote for, then we wouldn't need the option to vote against files in the first place...choosing to not vote for a file will ultimately push it down in the rankings.[/quote:1e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i62ad5]

No and no.

The system, in its current incarnation, is integer based. Without an against vote that detracts from a file's score, there is no way to accurately gauge what percentage of the community actually wants a certain file. You end up with a "loud minority" issue: like a lobby group, a few dedicated people who share an interest push their agenda over the cusp of its relevance. If there are two files on the voting page, and both are wanted by one hundred people, but the first is not wanted by ten people whereas the second file is not wanted by one hundred people, this indicates that the first file appeals more to the community as a whole, which is what the voting system is designed to gauge.

For this reason, abstaining does nothing to move files down the rankings. Not voting can only move the files up, and like many people have said, without a way to detract from a file's score, the files that will appear to be the "most desired" are the ones that have existed longer, and thus have been able to attract more votes in general.

This is seventh grade math and politics, folks. If you only add, numbers only get bigger. If choosing option A does not discount option B, then there must be an way to discount option B if one so chooses. I don't see where all the confusion is coming from.

[Alien4420]

[quote="MasterHMH"]
For this reason, abstaining does nothing to move files down the rankings. Not voting can only move the files up, and like many people have said, without a way to detract from a file's score, the files that will appear to be the "most desired" are the ones that have existed longer, and thus have been able to attract more votes in general.

This is seventh grade math and politics, folks. If you only add, numbers only get bigger. If choosing option A does not discount option B, then there must be an way to discount option B if one so chooses. I don't see where all the confusion is coming from.[/quote]

True, but it's also true that people don't necessarily consider a vote against the same as "not interested." I know that I didn't. I voted against only those files that I thought were useless, e.g., files that purported to bring about physical changes that can't be triggered by hypnosis. And I get the sense in looking at the list that others have reacted the same way, e.g., use the no vote to express distaste for certain files, and that this has discouraged the creation of a certain class of file that some might want. For that reason, it seems to me that a ratio of yes votes to views would be more meaningful. AFAIK that isn't practical, but a combination of a random display order and an algorithm that divided yes votes by the length of time a file has been listed might do the trick.

[davelowe1977]

[quote="MasterHMH"]
This is seventh grade math and politics, folks. If you only add, numbers only get bigger. If choosing option A does not discount option B, then there must be an way to discount option B if one so chooses. I don't see where all the confusion is coming from.[/quote]

Ever since I have being following this debate, I see polar extremes, and errors.

First up is the 'if you only add, numbers only get bigger'. This isn't true. Add -1 to 1/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i and see if you get 11. This is not just a hypothetical example.

Second, regarding the voting example you cited, its perfectly true - provided you assume that the voting system is 'first past the post'. There are other methods that might be better. One that springs to mind is proportional representation. Granted it doesn't do much for politics in Italy, but it might work well here. The option to abstain, together with the fact that everyone's tastes are different should count as a valid point or vote.

[Krysta]

well, I do have to admit that the voting page might seem more relevant to me if it were on a rating scale, similar to that of the files after they're recorded. higher rated files would move to the top, lower ones down, and equal ratings would be split by number of votes. Personally though, while I can't speak for emg, if I go to the voting page looking for ideas, I don't pay any attention to its place on the list anyway, but rather just skim through them til something grabs my attention.

[wix]

Honestly, the 'against' link has no place on a site like this. I’m not into 95% of the stuff that is sold on this site. Diapers, babies, furries, blech! I choose to ignore that stuff because it doesn’t do anything for me (a kind understatement on my part). Over and over again I see file ideas I’ve added get pushed off the page. I think they are reasonable ideas - doable in terms of what you could get out of hypnosis, not so jam packed full of someones very specific fetish, and definitely not so out there that it could even offend someone. Example - "humper".

It’s disheartening to think that people just vote against anything that doesn’t turn them on. If that’s the case I’m surprised that people don’t do that with the files that are already made, if people are that immature about it.

Hypnosis files are made by real people right? So in what way does the 'against' vote help them? They aren’t forced to make any files that bubble up to the top. They can ignore dangerous and idiotic ones.

EMG... Drop the against links, please.