Subliminal Music

[Trance01]

Here is a little idea, a subliminal files that plays standard music (rock, pop rap etc) but with subliminal messages in the background. This would mean the listener (or victim :twisted: ) thinks they are just listening to their favourite song(s) but they are being secretly programmed. This would also mean the listeners attention is focused on the music thus opening up the subconscious to the subliminals.

what you think EMG? good idea? :D or would it even work? :?

[EMG]

I have no problem with the idea other than the fact that the music would have to be public domain or I would have to have the rights to it or I would be in MAJOR trouble for copyright violations.

Here is a little idea, a subliminal files that plays standard music (rock, pop rap etc) but with subliminal messages in the background. This would mean the listener (or victim :twisted: ) thinks they are just listening to their favourite song(s) but they are being secretly programmed. This would also mean the listeners attention is focused on the music thus opening up the subconscious to the subliminals.

what you think EMG? good idea? :D or would it even work? :?

[gregi696]

Hey there. You're new so you might not have bothered to skim through all of the threads, there are quite a few now. A similar topic came up a while ago and EMG made a public statement that he would not help with any unwilling or unknown hypnosis. While an interesting concept, it certainly has an air of being illegal about it(if used on people who didn't know it). If you want to do it for your own benefit you can download audio editing software online and splice your own files to make subliminals however you want. A good program is Nero Burning Rom, it is suite that includes some easy to use audio editing software. Though it is not free.

[davelowe1977]

I think the subliminal tunes are a good idea. If someone can explain the process to me I will create one and submit it. I have some music that I have created for the backgrounds to business presentations which I own the rights to (it's already quite hypnotic!). There are bits of 'dark' sounding dance music I have written too. Presumably the vocal track is overlaid but so quietly the concious mind cannot hear it. Anyone who knows better, please advise. I have all the studio software, etc. I could also spacially encode it if required to whatever brainwave frequency people think best (theta etc). Any thoughts?

[loony28]

:twisted: It's a good idea. If EMG does use this idea I would suggest a tame file, like to help people achieve trance easier. EMG would also have to post a warning somewhere that there is subliminal music playing on the site so people can have a chance to turn off their speakers. :twisted:

[sandy82]

dave, an interesting idea and a generous offer.

Along the lines of what gregi696 said, the legal confrontation between the French government and Yahoo a couple of years ago made it clear in certain circumstances that a website is subject to the laws of a jurisdiction where it "does business." Microsoft has pots of money, and Yahoo does not. Hence Yahoo shows more caution than does Microsoft. Witness Yahoo's closing of all their chat rooms several weeks ago in order to search for kiddie porn.

The insertion of genuinely subliminal messaging, of which the ultimate listener may be unaware, could cross legal lines in some places; and the availability of such files on a website, if general in nature, would be hard to deny.

I think the subliminal tunes are a good idea. If someone can explain the process to me I will create one and submit it. I have some music that I have created for the backgrounds to business presentations which I own the rights to (it's already quite hypnotic!). There are bits of 'dark' sounding dance music I have written too. Presumably the vocal track is overlaid but so quietly the concious mind cannot hear it. Anyone who knows better, please advise. I have all the studio software, etc. I could also spacially encode it if required to whatever brainwave frequency people think best (theta etc). Any thoughts?

[jeremiah]

Yes and other people could use it to get back at people they dislike. Say, "hey listen to this awesome song" and they will but they dont know whats happening.

[sandy82]

Why are the only choices in your poll "yes" and "maybe"?

Here is a little idea, a subliminal files that plays standard music (rock, pop rap etc) but with subliminal messages in the background. This would mean the listener (or victim :twisted: ) thinks they are just listening to their favourite song(s) but they are being secretly programmed. This would also mean the listeners attention is focused on the music thus opening up the subconscious to the subliminals.

what you think EMG? good idea? :D or would it even work? :?

[johnbohnrevenge]

Optimism? :?

Why are the only choices in your poll "yes" and "maybe"?

Here is a little idea, a subliminal files that plays standard music (rock, pop rap etc) but with subliminal messages in the background. This would mean the listener (or victim :twisted: ) thinks they are just listening to their favourite song(s) but they are being secretly programmed. This would also mean the listeners attention is focused on the music thus opening up the subconscious to the subliminals.

what you think EMG? good idea? :D or would it even work? :?

[demigraff]

Why are the only choices in your poll "yes" and "maybe"?

If you're not interested in the idea, then do you really care whether these files get made or not?

[MRV35]

I have no problem with the idea other than the fact that the music would have to be public domain

I agree......about a year ago I stumbled upon a Hypno site that had subliminal MP3 files....one of them was 'Man I Feel Like A Woman' by Shania Twain but it contained subliminals to feminize the person that listened to it. While the song goes in tune with what the subliminals are putting out, I think it is a question of ethics. I am not going preach to the choir but, I would want to know if that song I'm listening to is more than just a catchy tune. Even since I found out about that file, I wondered how many subliminals were being hidden in regular songs. While the concept is great, it has a sense of creepiness to it if it done unwillingly. For instance, how many of you would want to be feminized unwillingly or for that matter be unwillingly and unknowingly made to like or crave something which you have no want or desire for. Just my 2 cents.

[davelowe1977]

Ok. So if i looped the words 'this is a subliminal file' or somesuch over the music that you could hear clearly, but left the actual subliminal lyrics in the background, would that sort it?

dave, an interesting idea and a generous offer.

The insertion of genuinely subliminal messaging, of which the ultimate listener may be unaware, could cross legal lines in some places; and the availability of such files on a website, if general in nature, would be hard to deny.

[sandy82]

Dave, here's what I know about internet law at the present time. The U.S. Government has passed a law preventing the individual 50 states from levying a sales tax (similar to VAT, but levied only at time of retail purchase) on internet sales. In contrast, both federal and state law enforcement officials arrest older people who have made dates with minors...when the older person shows up at the meeting site.

That tells me that on some criminal matters the U.S. has at least 52 sets of laws that need to be looked at (U.S. plus 50 states, plus the District of Columbia).

We also know that France applied their "anti-Nazi memorabilia sales" law to Yahoo. That suggests foreign laws could apply when residents of those countries download from a site available to those residents. If so, then what is the law on genuinely subliminal recordings in Europe, the Far East, Oceania, etc.?

I don't know the answers, but those are the questions I see. Experts (you won't find one who can handle it all) may see more questions: in Federal Communications Commission, Federal Trade Commission, and other U.S. national laws and regulations; in similar laws and regulations of the 50 states; in European Union regs and in the national laws of the various member countries; East Asia, Oceania, etc.

If a reputable compendium has been published, that would be helpful. The subject is so narrow that I doubt any such publication exists.

In the absence of a reliable published guide, I can estimate the legal fees for such research as reaching well into the thousands of dollars.

The people who are willing to take such risks fall into two groups: Bill Gates and those with no assets. The first has, literally, billions salted away for legal battles. The second has nothing to lose.

Ok. So if i looped the words 'this is a subliminal file' or somesuch over the music that you could hear clearly, but left the actual subliminal lyrics in the background, would that sort it?

dave, an interesting idea and a generous offer.

[sandy82]

Why are the only choices in your poll "yes" and "maybe"?

If you're not interested in the idea, then do you really care whether these files get made or not?

As a regular visitor to the UK, I applaud the dry English sense of humor. I count at least 13 towns named Preston from Devon to Northumbria, and the humor may get broader as one travels north or west from the Home Counties.

On the off-chance that your post was not intended to be funny, let me give a few reasons why I "really care."

1. Putin is likely to run for re-election. As posed, the poll questions here are Putin's dream. Each respondent gets a choice between "I like him" and "I'll support him if most other people do." Since I am not a fan of former KGB colonels, I tend to favor polls that give respondents a wide range of options.

2. The wording of the first "choice" causes me concern.

"Yes, lets get some up on the site."

May I translate that into more responsible English?

"Yes, let's leave EMG holding the bag in case there's a lawsuit or a prosecution--or even the notoriety of an investigation or a newspaper article."

I happen to like this site. I think EMG has been extraordinarily generous to all of us. I don't want to repay his kindness by having no choice but to support a proposal which might, just might, result in his losing his shirt and all his other assets. I'm not sure that would happen, but I am virtually certain that those with nothing to lose will seek to assure him that it can't, shan't, won't, wouldn't, couldn't possibly happen.

If uploaded at all, it may be safer (in the absence of bulletproof legal advice--see post above) to house such genuinely subliminal files on a separate site, separately owned, and in another country. I stress that I am not advising that. I offer it as a hypothetical alternative to an unacceptable risk, however small that risk may be. An unacceptable risk because it is totally avoidable.
.

[davelowe1977]

Sandy, I read with much interest your analysis of the current legal conditions with respect to subliminal files and see your point. Clearly the situation is rather cloudy varying from juristiction to juristiction, not just for the US, but also across the wider world also.

I suppose the essential legal question is: is it illegal to produce a subliminal recording per se, or just illegal to produce a subliminal file where people who listen to it are not aware of the hidden content. In the latter case, we would be in the clear by looping a clear disclaimer over the music I suspect.

There may also be lack of clarity over the intention and purpose of the subliminal message. For example, there is a wide gulf between a file that encourages a sense of wellbeing and a file that promotes murder.

It just seems such a shame that we probably can't proceed with this idea when every attempt at fairplay has been observed, but I fully agree that we could not and should not ask EMG to shoulder the responsibility.

As an aside: a person listing their location as Preston, UK, would almost certainly mean Preston, Lancashire. I note there is a Preston, Connecticut, not, it would seem, a very original name!

[sandy82]

Dave, I'm trying to be the voice of caution. The initial post referred to the listener as a "victim", and several people besides me seemed to be uneasy about subliminal messages, of whose full content the listener might be unaware. "Secretly programmed" is the phrase used in the first post.

Properly done, a subliminal file can be fine. Today I looked at the case for a commercially produced CD made by someone named Stephen Halpern. In the library, no less. The insert says that it uses alpha and theta waves. (Each track on the CD is apparently like elevator music.) Then it lists verbatim the subliminal "affirmations" on the CD. The memorable lines include: "You breathe in life-giving energy and breathe out tensions and toxins."

This commercially produced CD has several features that may be important factors:

1. The music itself would sound non-threatening in a geriatric clinic.
2. All the "affirmations" sound like a New Age get-well card.
3. All the words in all the "affirmations" are there for the reading.

Thus, the manufacturer is triply protected. First, even the "reasonable man" in rural Oklahoma would find the music palatable. Second, the company has disclosed all the subliminal contents, word by word. Third, even if the insert becomes separated from the CD, the subliminal words make vanilla seem pungent.

The foregoing is somewhat different from what some people have in mind. It is in that gray area that the risk may lie--and where the permissible boundaries may vary by jurisdiction.

I did not write down the name of the manufacturer, but the name of the author/composer might lead to a website and perhaps to an individual or company that can give a clearer picture of what is impermissible and what is not.

One aspect that makes topics like this murky is an institution the UK and the US share: what would 12 local people think? It's a long way from Manhattan to Muskogee, Oklahoma; and it's a long way from Islington to Carlisle.

I did spot Preston in Lancashire. A safe distance from Leeds and Liverpool. When this site first started there was a user from Preston or Blackburn. As I recall, he was waiting for his train and typing in a cyber-cafe in or near the Blackpool railroad station. He ended his hurried message with "My God, I have to make this train, or I'll be in Blackpool all night!"

I think he made it...we heard from him again. :wink:

A quick serious note. I have been asked several times by one or another new member whether anything was "hidden" in any of the files he planned to download. After consultation with someone much more knowledgeable than I am, I told the worried new member that absolutely nothing was hidden and that he could download the file, take it to a lab, and have it analysed. We will need to be able to provide clear-cut, black-white assurances to such people. The message, however phrased, will have to be equally unequivocal in order to scotch rumors before they start.

Sandy, I read with much interest your analysis of the current legal conditions with respect to subliminal files and see your point. Clearly the situation is rather cloudy varying from juristiction to juristiction, not just for the US, but also across the wider world also.

I suppose the essential legal question is: is it illegal to produce a subliminal recording per se, or just illegal to produce a subliminal file where people who listen to it are not aware of the hidden content. In the latter case, we would be in the clear by looping a clear disclaimer over the music I suspect.

There may also be lack of clarity over the intention and purpose of the subliminal message. For example, there is a wide gulf between a file that encourages a sense of wellbeing and a file that promotes murder.

It just seems such a shame that we probably can't proceed with this idea when every attempt at fairplay has been observed, but I fully agree that we could not and should not ask EMG to shoulder the responsibility.

As an aside: a person listing their location as Preston, UK, would almost certainly mean Preston, Lancashire. I note there is a Preston, Connecticut, not, it would seem, a very original name!

[demigraff]

This commercially produced CD has several features that may be important factors:

1. The music itself would sound non-threatening in a geriatric clinic.
2. All the "affirmations" sound like a New Age get-well card.
3. All the words in all the "affirmations" are there for the reading.

When I bought Endorfun (game with subliminal messages), I found an interesting disclaimer in the box. It cited laws for various regions on the use of subliminal messages, and also included a full list of messages in the software.
As I remember it (I left all my game boxes in my parents' attic when I left), most of the citations boiled down to a subset of 3 requirements:
1) A clear warning that the product contains potentially mind-altering content
2) A complete list of the suggestions in a safely readable format
3) Warn the buyer that it may be illegal to show/play it to other people unless you warn them first

I'll ask my mom to bring the box when we move into the new house. It quotes chapter and verse for a few regions, so that would at least give somewhere to look up further information.

I did spot Preston in Lancashire. A safe distance from Leeds and Liverpool. When this site first started there was a user from Preston or Blackburn. As I recall, he was waiting for his train and typing in a cyber-cafe in or near the Blackpool railroad station. He ended his hurried message with "My God, I have to make this train, or I'll be in Blackpool all night!"

I know of 3 people in Preston who are or used to be members of this site... one person from IRC, one person I've seen on the forums, and one person whose deviantart profile cites the files as an inspiration for his poetry.
Is this an unusually large concentration of people? I dunno.
In any case, I should probably change my profile now, as I no longer live there :(

[johnbohnrevenge]

...I wonder where Trance01 has gone to in all this?

[sandy82]

...I wonder where Trance01 has gone to in all this?

Good question, jbr. Looking for "victims" to be "secretly programmed" is probably an accurate statement of what he had in mind, but it flunks the current U.S. test for euphemism. Here, we don't take taxpayers' money and give it to tax-exempt churches. Nope, we don't do that. We call it a faith-based initiative. And when politicians want to put old-age pension funds into a roller-coaster stock market, they talk about the "magic of compound interest"--hoping people will forget that stocks don't pay interest. And then there was victory in Iraq on May 1, 2003, followed by "the last throes" of the insurgents about three months ago. ...Shall we "cut and run" or "stay the course"? (Genuine answer: Where are the scissors and the Nikes?)

Mr. Blair's technique is slightly different, but the goal is the same. He uses the literate binary choice illusion. For instance, someone complains that there are too many deaths at the intersection of the M6 and the A59, and asks what he intends to do about it. Answer: "This world is filled with choices; and if the world were perfect, one of the choices would be ideal. Now, I suppose we could ban all traffic on one or both highways that the people have paid for, causing untold hardship to commuters and travelers, and negatively affecting the economy of an area already hit by [famine, flood, pestilence, drought--pick one or more]. Is that what you really want? I say No. In this real world we are called upon to make hard decisions every day. We are studying plans for that intersection, but we urge the motoring public in the meantime to exercise caution. New Labour believes that prudence itself is a national priority."

Seriously, I give Trance01 high marks for honesty. But that's a quality to which the Brave New Politicians seem to ascribe no importance whatever.

His mistake was telling it straight. If he had proposed to "help people with their needs in a non-intrusive way," there might have been no thread here. The sad fact is that many people don't think anymore; and if the words sound nice, they'll swallow every time.
.

[Trance01]

Hi everyone, I have been having a few internet problems but they are sorted now. Just for the record all that "victim" stuff was just my sick sense of humor, I wasnt being serious(dont want people thinking im like that).

Anyway, looks like alot of people like the idea. But there are all the copywright laws that could prevent this. i have been trying to make some of my own subliminal programs but i am not to good with computers :oops: .

Mainly the reason i thought up the idea was to make it more entertaining to listen to the subliminals, not so i could use them on someone to my advantage (honest).

Thanks to everyone who has made offers to make these files. :D

[sandy82]

Trance, it was refreshing to hear something clear for a change. People know you meant no harm. I'd much prefer to read your first post than to hear another chirpy voice on the radio say that "McDonald's hamburgers are good for you." :wink:

As you've probably read, demigraff is planning to get the information that came with Endorfun, and I bet there's some information out there if people like Steve Halpern are selling Muzak-type subliminal tapes through record/tape/CD outlets.

One of the key points is that a general notice of subliminal content is probably not enough--since the products demigraff and I discovered had the full subliminal contents spelled out. When you think about it, a general notice is like going to the pharmacy to get some over-the-counter medication, and you discover that the label on the package says: "Warning. Some of the contents may be disagreeable to you, but we don't tell you what the contents are."

Full and complete disclosure is the best defense. Food processors and tobacco companies disliked the labeling requirements when they were first introduced. Now they realize that those labels save them from many complaints.

The makers of "San Andreas Fault" are discovering, with their most recent edition, the pitfalls of not disclosing all the contents.

Glad your Internet problems are solved! :)

[johnbohnrevenge]

Hi everyone, I have been having a few internet problems but they are sorted now. Just for the record all that "victim" stuff was just my sick sense of humor, I wasnt being serious(dont want people thinking im like that).

Anyway, looks like alot of people like the idea. But there are all the copywright laws that could prevent this. i have been trying to make some of my own subliminal programs but i am not to good with computers :oops: .

Mainly the reason i thought up the idea was to make it more entertaining to listen to the subliminals, not so i could use them on someone to my advantage (honest).

Thanks to everyone who has made offers to make these files. :D

Oddly, I'm still incensed by the Yes/Maybe thing, but then again, I'm always enraged when people attack my taste in potato chips. I might be wrong, but surely some of the sublims on this site are what you want already? Because if they are, just splice them with amplified music, and it should work all right (it's worked for trustworthy friends of mine).

I'd much prefer to read your first post than to hear another chirpy voice on the radio say that "McDonald's hamburgers are good for you." :wink:

But it's true! :( I feel so disillusioned...

[Trance01]

yeah sorry about that "yes mabey thing" i did put in a third option of "no, im happy with what there is" but for some reason it didnt show up 8O . Im not too good with forums :P .

[sandy82]

I can't comment this morning. I have an excuse. The dog ate my homework.

[slavekaye]

subliminals are great :)

[marki1p]

Some subliminal files are already posted on the site. If the subliminal message is hidden behind the sound of rain or similar, it doesn't make it much different from a subliminal message hidden behind a song.
I could tell someone that listening to the sound of rain is soothing or such if I'd wanted this person to listen to the subliminal message.
What do you think?

[BobbyS]

I don't want to sound over-simplistic here (which means I probably will), but I really don't see the ethical problem of songs with subliminal messages on the site, as long as the files have some tag, or description that identifies them as subliminal and points you to somewhere where you can read all the suggestions. Playng music on the background of the main site is a bad idea as the human race are dopey sods and most of us won't see the 'Subliminals playing - you may want to switch off your speakers' message unless it's shown in neon lights next to a pole dancer or two. Obviously there's still the problem of a commercial song freely available on a (mostly) free site, but that's more a litigious problem than an ethical one.

And Sandy82, your line about the "San Andreas Fault" problem - are you referring to the videogame "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" and certain 'explicit' content hidden from the normal game?

[sandy82]

...I really don't see the ethical problem of songs with subliminal messages on the site, as long as the files have some tag, or description that identifies them as subliminal and points you to somewhere where you can read all the suggestions.

And Sandy82, your line about the "San Andreas Fault" problem - are you referring to the videogame "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" and certain 'explicit' content hidden from the normal game?

BobbyS, you've got the name of the video game correct. I didn't. The makers have discovered some of the problems related to the hidden contents. First, they claimed they didn't know anything about hidden contents. Then they claimed that "some extra stuff" always manages to wind up in a finished project. (I've been looking for a copy of Microsoft Office that contains all the episodes of Star Trek, but I haven't found it yet. :P )

Personally, I don't mind what the game contains, but parents of 10- and 12-year-olds probably have a different viewpoint. "GTA-SA" is not an orthodox subliminal, but it does have hidden content that was accessed by relatively few. You see the hell that was/is raised over it. I got the impression from the international press that Australia has banned the sale of "GTA-SA." You can be sure that the manufacturers haven't heard the last of it.

In your first paragraph, Bobby, you have hit on the key essentials of the needed disclosure: notice of the subliminal content, and an accessible place where you can read the entire subliminal contents. You're right: without these, there is an ethical issue. But for those who no longer care about ethics, this can also be a legal issue...with potentially heavy penalties. (Play both versions of, say, "MaleVagina" for an Oklahoma jury and see how many zeroes follow that initial "1" in the damage award.)

A note for marki1p: The Mystery file was the first subliminal on the site. You can hear all the words if you listen closely enough. In the case of the files made by Jerm: Jerm is a very responsible person, and his subliminals are made directly from the full-voice files. He has said exactly how he makes them. The similarities in title between the full-voice and subliminal versions are hard to miss. To me, that amounts to sufficient disclosure of the contents. When I say that, however, I am not the judge or jury in any potential lawsuit.
In the case of the Halpern subliminals that I mentioned above, however, the listener cannot hear the messages. There's a longer description in one of the earlier posts.

In this particular case, neither you nor I will be left holding the bag on subliminal files that may have crossed the line. We had nothing to do with making or distributing them. But in some locations in the US, a jury would find such files to be Works of Evil...and the maker and distributor could wind up holding the bag if the issue were not handled prudently from the outset.

I don't want Jerm or EMG any closer to that line than is absolutely necessary---or, as adults, any closer than they choose voluntarily to go.

[Mallic]

Here is a little idea, a subliminal files that plays standard music (rock, pop rap etc) but with subliminal messages in the background. This would mean the listener (or victim :twisted: ) thinks they are just listening to their favourite song(s) but they are being secretly programmed. This would also mean the listeners attention is focused on the music thus opening up the subconscious to the subliminals.

what you think EMG? good idea? :D or would it even work? :?

This is the best Idea I've seen on this site. I rarely get the oppatunity to liten to the whole files.

[goldragon_70]

It would be better if there was a program that could play two files at ones, and allow you to effect the volume of both. That way you can play any music you have with the files, and EMG wouldn't have to worry about copy protection problems.

[Mallic]

Multitasking is good for subliminals. Perferably something that distracks your consious mind. Maybe we could have subliminal guitar tip playing while you play the guitar?