Magic

[Mallic]

Venturing into the deep depths of the Warpmymind forums, I came across a thread on the topic of magic. A rather heated diccusion had arose in the first few posts. For me, it raises a interesting question. Is magic a phyicial phenomenon, or a soicial construct? CAn someone please deifine "Magic"?

[goldragon_70]

If I explained how I see magic works and how it effects the physical, very few would porbably follow, and may start a bad debate. :p

[Mallic]

Thats why we're here

[missypuss]

Magic is a state of mind. I want a thing . I send out a request into the universe. I light a few candles. Burn a little incense. I might get that which i requested but it all depends on my intent. For example. I fancied the pants off of a guy a while back. I got him. But not in the way i wanted him because I hadnt thought it through to its logical conclusion before I put in my request.
It turned into something I didnt ask for . Guess I should have been more specific.
I dont think magic such as disappearing people out of boxes and levitating women works.
But I think that there are ways of creating your own magic at your own cost..Be careful what u wish for......

[Ceot]

That moment youve finally found that special someone.
A loveing gaze with sincerity.

An eternal embrace of two hearts.

[Ceot]

Althow if I could alter the chi of existance.

That energy between matter itself.

[Mallic]

Ceot, you've done a tg_812 and gone on a posting spree

[aeroue]

If manipulating Chi comes under magic in your mind then yes.

But magic is just a name given to something when you do not understand how it works.

Chi may be magic to you but to me it is not. It is the same with anything.

[goldragon_70]

Chi may exist, but it's really the energy of the body focused. There is also the power of the spirit, which has the ability to affect Cause and effect.

[ipnosi]

Magic is everything. Nothing can exist without magical energies running through it. Extending the effects of magic beyond it's normal place as the driving force of the universe is possible, but most likely wuite difficult and dangerous.

But that's just me.

[megamanrulesall]

Not sure if any of you have heard of Jane Robert & her Seth Speaks stuff. I found a couple of the Seth Speaks audio files & listened to them & was blown away.

Anyways here's a Rapidshare file with the two of them. Each of the 2 files are about an hour long.

http://rapidshare.de/files/8579719/Seth_Speaks_1_2.zip.html

If you don't know how to use rapidshare, I'll tell you how. You click the free button, wait for the timer to go down, then enter the 2 or 3 digit code displayed & click download.

IF you guys do take the time to listen to them, I would like to hear your guys opinion on it. Talk to you later.

[SubmissMe]

Dear me Mallic you should be ashamed. People will be wittering on about magic and love and happiness and other supposidly metaphysical ideas :x

Oh the shame, the shame of it all.........

[Mallic]

I am shamed and I will sit in the corner.......

Mallic (In four words: Yes)

[hailtheprinceofdarkness]

AAAH! yes!

This is my kind of topic! :P
How is "magic" defined? When go study to become a mage, the first thing that they tell you is to respect the magic around you. This magic that they were talking about is "energy" or "aura" that "makes the earth spin." This is one conception of magic.

The magic I believe that you want to know the definition of is the art of magic. (hence why it is important to go into all-out specifics) The Art of magic ties directly into religion. Go up to any Pagan and ask what the Christian equivalent of a spell is and they will say "a prayer." The art of magic is appealing to a higher power than yourself for a solution. As a Chaos Mage, my magic appeals to my subconscious for my prayers to be answered.

I hope this helped

[Mallic]

Forgive me, I am an ignorant fool, but isn't your subconsouis you anyway?

[aeroue]

You are not your subconcious but your subconcious is you.

You are your 'self' , ego , whatever.

I think. :?

[SubmissMe]

There is no such thing as a self.

[aeroue]

I assure you there is, I am it.

Were there not a self I would not have typed this.

[Mallic]

YOU BOTH ARE FIGMENTS OF MY IMAGINATION!! GOD HAS PUT YOU HERE TO TEST HOW LONG I CAN GET PISSED OFF BEFORE COMMITING SUICIDE!!

[aeroue]

:lol:

Quite possibly.
Wouldn't surprise me if you were insane :P

[goldragon_70]

YOU BOTH ARE FIGMENTS OF MY IMAGINATION!! GOD HAS PUT YOU HERE TO TEST HOW LONG I CAN GET PISSED OFF BEFORE COMMITING SUICIDE!!

8O DO IT!!!.....DO IT!!!!......DOOOOOO IIIIIIIIT!!! :twisted:

[Mallic]

Bang...

[goldragon_70]

Bang...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! :twisted:

Actually....that's sad. :cry:

Mallic as a good annoying poster, the kind you kinda wanted to see what he said to see if you would fall down and roll around laughing. :(

[SubmissMe]

There is NO such thing as an inner self. None whatsoever. Its just rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

How do you define a self?

[aeroue]

I wasn't advocating an inner self/soul as I assume you are now going on about.

I was clearly highlighting the difference between the subconcious and the self or if you prefer the ego.


BUT a self is me, the thinking part. It is clearly different from my body as I have personally experienced being outside my body.

Yes it is subjective proof, you can't be sure, you have to take my word for it. Which I doubt you will.

[goldragon_70]

BUT a self is me, the thinking part. It is clearly different from my body as I have personally experienced being outside my body.

I have too. But then again I hear the spirits that have no physical form as well.

[Hyp-know-fetish]

YOU BOTH ARE FIGMENTS OF MY IMAGINATION!! GOD HAS PUT YOU HERE TO TEST HOW LONG I CAN GET PISSED OFF BEFORE COMMITING SUICIDE!!

That's nothing. I'm a figment of my OWN imagination MWAHAHAHAHAHA

Anyway, I believe hypnosis is actually a form of magic. Think about it; not all hypnosis is magic nor is all magic hypnosis, but some hypnosis is actually magical by definition! Look at all the Transformations that go on here. Look at the success of CursePenisShrink and the like. Causing physical changes is truly a form of magic, and we get that here.

Of course, not all hypnosis causes physical changes and is not magic. Also, I have not seen true magic outside of hypnosis but if it exists, then it isn't hypnosis.

[SubmissMe]

Obviously I look upon outer body experiences with a very sceptical front, but far be it from me to call you a liar. I don't believe it to be possible, that's because I haven't experienced it for myself yet.

I am talking about a self as the essence of a person, the divine essence that gives me my personality diversity. That is a pile of horse manure. There is no essential self, just experiences and actions.

[aeroue]

Smoke some salvia divinorum that should give you an O.B.E :D
but then I do not really expect you to be into drugs.

But what else is the bit that leaves the body if it is not the 'divine essence' or whatever?
But if you are nothing but experiences and actions, then what was it that had the first experience?

By your definition there was no self at that point, so how could it experience?

There has to be something there to experience the first experiences.


However I did just come up with that on the fly so it may have a hole or two in...

[SubmissMe]

No, we never have a self.

We just have experiences and that is that.

[nuit09]

Magick is the art and science of causing changes in reality in accordance to your will. every willed act is a magickal act.

What we view as self is an every changing locus of awareness that falls for the illusion of stability of form. there is, apart from this, a divine essence in us all but it has no ego. It is the only part of us that is truly immortal.

[goldragon_70]

Magick is the art and science of causing changes in reality in accordance to your will. every willed act is a magickal act.

What we view as self is an every changing locus of awareness that falls for the illusion of stability of form. there is, apart from this, a divine essence in us all but it has no ego. It is the only part of us that is truly immortal.

This is much like how I understand it. It the will using spiritually energy on the strings of cause and effect in the surroundings.

[nuit09]

indeed. but the system used to do so is (in my opinion) wholey synthetic. An arbitrarily created magical operating system of any sort can be used with equal efficiency by a proficient user. A symbolic language constructed to enable communication with that hidden part of us that is more than human.

The hints are there in the eastern mysticism and even in western magick.

In tibet there are literally hundreds of arrangements and specifications of Chakras. each of hundreds of dieties has it's own layout of chakras in contradiction to each other. some are even below the feet and above the head. Yet Tumo and other disciplines that use these fictional chakras work and a practicioner can see and feel them and their effects.


If a western mage can summon to"visisble" appearance a fictional character such as Gandalf and gather information from it or send it on an errand then it is clear (at least to someone who knows magick works from experience) that the operating system is arbitrary even if the results are not. of course an outside observer who has no such certitude in the efficacy of magick will point to such as proof that magick is nonsense. The chaos mage who summons mickey mouse as a vassal will of course disagree...

[goldragon_70]

indeed. but the system used to do so is (in my opinion) wholey synthetic. An arbitrarily created magical operating system of any sort can be used with equal efficiency by a proficient user. A symbolic language constructed to enable communication with that hidden part of us that is more than human.

You could just ask the spirits around you. They are far more capable at keeping effect of a spell from back firing.

If a western mage can summon to"visisble" appearance a fictional character such as Gandalf and gather information from it or send it on an errand then it is clear (at least to someone who knows magick works from experience) that the operating system is arbitrary even if the results are not. of course an outside observer who has no such certitude in the efficacy of magick will point to such as proof that magick is nonsense. The chaos mage who summons mickey mouse as a vassal will of course disagree...

True, but those that are unseen usualy get the job done better.

[nuit09]

one characteristic of western ceremonial magick versus pagan and neopagan belief systems is that it holds that most elementary spirits are not independant beings even elemental princes kings and queens. i am not certain this view is correct. but that is what ceremonial magick holds. My dealings with elementary spirits has seemed to suggest otherwise but my contact was very brief, very limited and rare. I once had elementary spirits intrude on my preparatiions for telekinesis. a sly little gnome hidden under a chair and peering out at me for a few seconds. scrying at sylphs and undines. an attempt to communicate with one of Franz Bardon's elementary queens.

the gnome appeared to be composed of earth and rock. it was brown bumpy. slender but muscular completely bald with a bulbous nose. he was attempting to remain hidden but wanted to spy on my efforts. he had a grin until he saw me looking at him he startled and dissappeared.

from his behavior i would be hard pressed to say he was following my will.

I encountered sylphs in the wild one the shores of a lake in the full of the moon. they played and stirred whirlwinds of leaves, played on my skin teased those of us that were there. they played in the mists rising from the lake and seemed to dance and flit and whir in ecstacy of their playing.
thier whispers moans and laughter were enchanting. i never saw them then but have always believed that this is what was going on. i have never been effected that way before or since by "mere wind upon the land." That was a magical time and it is a time i miss.

The thought that these were elementals at play came unbidden to my mind. even the name "sylph" came to me and it was not a term with which i was familiar. my magical studies had not yet begun and i knew nothing of elemetal save that which I knew from AD&D. The purpose of our being there was to play the assassin's game with water guns and we arrived there on our motor cycles in the approach of midnight.

In 1994 in Germany while staying in a former Nazi Barracks which i later found out had nazi tunnels under it where people were tortured and killed on a daily basis i was attacked by an Astral entity of such evil that i can only call it a demon or the angel of death. it tried it's best to throttle me with it's bare boney hands. This encounter caused me to begin studying magick for the first time. it served as an initiation in that sense but it is one that i would gladly have done without.

Most of these, I am certain were not the semi autonomous complexes of C.G. Jung or the Western Ceremonials that latched onto his explanation of entities. But it is a difficult concept to discard entirely because it can explain most encounters with spirits. OTOH their disreguard for the lower astral home of the elementary spirits is based upon the idea that it acts as a sewer of material existance. yet the elementary spirits are not effluent. but the lower astral indeed does collect the spiritual detritus of the material world as time goes by it grows more and more vile as the negative activities of worldly existance leave their imprint.

and most elementals are almost mindless. They are easily warped by the evil that we dump there. and they need human contact to evolve. all but the most advanced are souless. and without a soul they will be destroyed utterly at the end of time. thus they seek congress with us but are possessed of limited intellect and little understanding of a human's material existance and limitations. and the funk of eons of murder, lies, pain, envy, sorrow, betrayal and every thing strong enough to leave an imprint in that maleable place naturally affects them. if they cannot access the higher astral they are swimming in our filth from the beginning of time until the end of time and are already consigned to doom.

Thus the ceremonial mage is told to leave the lower astral alone save as a means of accessing the higher planes beyond. caveat: the lower astral holds the most influence upon the material world ( and visa versa) and thus is where a certain type of grey magick must concern itself with. though most western traditions tell the mage to eshew grey magick and the lower astral at the earliest possible moment in his studies. Grey magick is however a necessary part of a fledgling mage's training. He must cultivate the ability to perturb the astral realms higher and higher. Grey magick is the start of that ability (excepting banish rituals and meditation.)

[hailtheprinceofdarkness]

Forgive me, I am an ignorant fool, but isn't your subconsouis you anyway?

The massive amounts of posts have left me lazy, to answer my question, I appeal to my subconscious mind as a greater power. According to Chaos magic, your "magic" is controlled by your subconscious.

So therefore, I appeal to a higher power even if the higher power is me.

[nuit09]

Chaos mages are very strange people. ;)

[nuit09]

Expounding on the idea of the subconscious as ceremonial magicians understand it; yeah it is you. at least most of it. but that does not mean you can just order it around. firstly parts of it do not speak your language. secondly parts of it have broken off and formed thier own personalities passions and goals. and they do not need to cooperate with you and will harm you in every way short of death if you mess with them without the proper preparation and training. In fact western traditions like the Golden Dawn highly recommend that an aspiring mage take therapy for a year before messing with magick at all. thirdly according to the mage's favorite psychoanalyst C. G. Jung, the depths of th subconsciousness of humans overlap creating a shared pool of knowledge drives concept archetypes. and these are god like in their scope and power. And they can definitely kick your ass if they want to unless you are a real magickal bad ass.

[hailtheprinceofdarkness]

Expounding on the idea of the subconscious as ceremonial magicians understand it; yeah it is you. at least most of it. but that does not mean you can just order it around. firstly parts of it do not speak your language. secondly parts of it have broken off and formed thier own personalities passions and goals. and they do not need to cooperate with you and will harm you in every way short of death if you mess with them without the proper preparation and training. In fact western traditions like the Golden Dawn highly recommend that an aspiring mage take therapy for a year before messing with magick at all. thirdly according to the mage's favorite psychoanalyst C. G. Jung, the depths of th subconsciousness of humans overlap creating a shared pool of knowledge drives concept archetypes. and these are god like in their scope and power. And they can definitely kick your ass if they want to unless you are a real magickal bad ass.

these are good points... and all true
I had to work for rive years in order to attemp my magic.
We get around the language problem with symbolism. We use the letters of the deed we want done in a sigil. The subconscious recognizes this, and uses the sigil as a symbolism for the spell. Then we utilize a trancestate to communicate (gnosis.)

Most Chaos mages make a different Sigil each time for the spell to avoid confusion with their subconscious. I personally think this is stupid, I save my sigils and the more I use the spell the better it gets.

and as to the psycological aspect, I never thought of it that way. please elaborate, I personally want a larger picture about that

[nuit09]

The western mages suggest it for a couple of reasons. firstly folks who tended to come to them for training tended to have serious personality defects and imbalances. and secondly, messing with the forces of elementals tends to creat further imbalances. and in a course of thaumaturgy which traditional western magic holds is the only reason to take the magical path threatens the existance of the independent autonomous complexes and they will resist quite aggressively. it can drive you insane. there are anedotes of them ripping thier human host apart. A course of therapy will begin to integrate thes dark fragments of yourself with the whole. it makes the process of dealing with your demons less perilous. you see in the process of western magick you are expected to tear your consciousness apart ( while remaining sane) and then reintigrate it in a balanced whole discarding very little and instead transforming the rebel spiritis in your mind to allies, parts of you, servants.

If you look at the Goetia you can see instead of an avaricious and infernal guide to trafficing in demons a system of psychology and integration that was written down in the middle ages. if you look at the Kaballah you can see one that was written down even earlier. all of these are symbolic systems of esentially psychotherapy. The demons are your demons. there are archetypical demons and other beings outside your mind but at it's frontier it is hard to tell where your mind leaves off and that which is not you begins. You can either treat all of them as external beings or none. or you can decide on a case by case basis. Actual external entities other than elemental spirits are quite rare.

Elementals ( even those not warped by the evil that accumulates in the lower astral) are dangerous only by accident and misadventure.

an undine will drown you as her influence will give you an unhealthy fascination with water if she becomes entangled with you. They do not know that you will die without air. yet mages often seek them out without the balance of the other elements grounding you and protecting you Some walk into a body of water and never awaken. Also some mages who survive drowning end up caught in a pact with a beautiful undine. a marriage of sorts. there are reasons for doing so but it is a set back during which you gain no advancement. the undine on the other hand by dint of her contact gains evolution from an elementary spirit to a more complex more powerful one.

Similar considerations apply to interaction with the other elementals according to thier properties.

[stephiebaby]

"CAn someone please deifine "Magic"?"

Yes, magic was the belief in supernatural phenomena reinforced through trickery and simple medicine. Today the belief magic exists, but the trickery magic is now called illusions, magicians are illusionists. The herbalism is now botany, medicine and pharmacology. We now acknowledge there is no real magic and replace deception with showmanship and knowledge.
The belief of magic is merely another superstition/religion, or delusion.


"Magic is a state of mind. I want a thing . I send out a request into the universe. I light a few candles. Burn a little incense. I might get that which i requested but it all depends on my intent."

Your intent has nothing to do with it, and you have merely replaced god with magic. When you get what you wanted you praise magic (your prayers were answered), but when you don't get what you want you blame yourself (I'm not worthy of god's favours). Very christian, catholic even. Your intent and your rituals have no influence on the outcome.

"I dont think magic such as disappearing people out of boxes and levitating women works."

That's the only magic which does work, and it is now called illusions since magic is not real.

"There is also the power of the spirit, which has the ability to affect Cause and effect."

Yeah, so does my lucky coin. Or if I believed in such things I would convince myself it was true, but I'd never be able to prove it to anyone else. The spirit only influences things if you mean your personality. If you mean supernatural kind of spirit, then you are into delusions/religions.

"This is my kind of topic!
How is "magic" defined? When go study to become a mage, the first thing that they tell you "

It's better getting the diagnosis from the psychiatrist, not the patient. Just like religion you wont get truth from those within the fantasy.

"The Art of magic ties directly into religion. Go up to any Pagan and ask what the Christian equivalent of a spell is and they will say "a prayer." "

Don't forget the jesus magic, walking on water, healing the sick, rising from the dead.

"YOU BOTH ARE FIGMENTS OF MY IMAGINATION!! GOD HAS PUT YOU HERE TO TEST HOW LONG I CAN GET PISSED OFF BEFORE COMMITING SUICIDE!!"

Actually all existence is a figment of my imagination I created to amuse myself ;).

"BUT a self is me, the thinking part. It is clearly different from my body as I have personally experienced being outside my body."

Yeah, you've "experienced" being outside your body, others "experienced" being abducted by aliens, others "experienced" talking to dead people. The thinking part of you, is your brain, which is part of your body. Removal of the brain to experience being outside your body is not recommended.

"but far be it from me to call you a liar. I don't believe it to be possible, that's because I haven't experienced it for myself yet."

You can certainly call them highly doubtful, the person acknowledges this themselves. They are smart enough to realise they can't prove what they believe. And your doubt is not just because you have not experienced it, it is also because there is no proof or anything to suggest it is possible. Your doubt is rational, you do not need to excuse it.

"But what else is the bit that leaves the body "

The only bits that leave the body are dead cells, hair, faeces, urine, parasites, sweat, sound, heat etc.

"then what was it that had the first experience?

By your definition there was no self at that point, so how could it experience?

There has to be something there to experience the first experiences"

Unless the first experience makes the something. Or the basic template is what is there for the first experience, then it is individually shaped from that first experiences through every experience.

"Magick is the art and science "

Science is what you get when you remove the magic superstition from basic botany and pharmacology. Magic is anti science, and pseudoscience.

"It is the only part of us that is truly immortal."

And here we are back at religion. The desire for immortality, stemming from the fear of death.

"of course an outside observer who has no such certitude in the efficacy of magick will point to such as proof that magick is nonsense. The chaos mage who summons mickey mouse as a vassal will of course disagree"

But like angels, your cartoon vassel cannot effect the real world. It cannot interact with me in any way, for example.

nuit09,
I think Indiana Jones said it best, "What a vivid imagination".

"And they can definitely kick your ass if they want to unless you are a real magickal bad ass."

This is like curses. They only work on believers. A non chemical voodoo curse will have no effect on a non believer, but can have a placebo effect on a believer. Ever wonder why tribal magic had no effect on firearms?

"The western mages suggest it for a couple of reasons. firstly folks who tended to come to them for training tended to have serious personality defects and imbalances"

It is one reason for people seeking out belief systems. It is also what cults use to great advantage.