Theories about god

[Mallic]

Well, religion is one of the topics of this forum so we need this stuff. Question: What do you think happens after life. If I get 10 post I'll tell you my theory.

[makidas]

After life we all go to one of 3 planes. The first one is the worst but none are se so bad. You will go here if you have made some mistakes in life (particularly suicide) and remain here until you learn a life lesson. The second (commonly refered to as the Summerland or the Christian heaven) is where most people go. Here anything you desire is a reality. But because this is true worldly pleasures do not exist (sex, money, etc). On this plane you can choose to be reincarnated if you desire. Finally on the last plane, you are reunited with the creator if you have reached true enlightenment. This is a brief description and is meant to be, I could go into much more detail if you'd like.

[loadedkaos]

I don't know where you go after you die. I assume that there is nothing, and I believe every thing else is a fantasy to make people feel better. I don't find the bleak nothingness after death scare me though because atleast I will finally be at peace. Although part of me hopes there is more, but I guess it wont really matter if I'm right any how would it? And there is only one true way to find out but screw that we'll just let that part come naturally.

[drydreamer]

I believe there are two worlds for us to live in - the physical and the spiritual. However, I think the physical world may not be the same for everyone; because it's possible that some of us are reincarnated from other planets. But I believe that we all go over to the spiritual world when our bodies die, and we all have the opportunity to get reincarnated if we decide we still need to learn something. This physical world is the only place where we can learn anything and grow as individuals, because this is where we have to overcome problems. In the spirit world, there are no problems or obstacles to overcome. That's because we go there not to struggle or overcome, but to THINK and REFLECT on our past mistakes and successes. In the spirit world, we each have old friends and loved ones from our past who help us decide what we need to learn next, and whether we should be reincarnated sooner or later. Most of us DO get reincarnated, because most of us are not perfected yet. Some of us carry a legacy of bad karma with us into our next lifetime because of all the mistakes we made in the last one. But some of us have taken care of our negative karma pretty well in our last lifetime, so we get to be born into a rich family, or into very pleasant circumstances. Surely everyone has noticed that some people seem to have much easier lives than other people! I got a past life reading from a psychic some years ago, and she told me that I'm currently in my 375th physical lifetime, and that I had suicided 41 times. A few years ago, because of my beliefs, I had the opportunity to talk a man out of commiting suicide. After he was released from the hospital, he came back and told me I was an angel sent from God. He said he couldn't even remember why he had wanted to kill himself! But I talked him out of it because I was able to convince him that he was making a big mistake - no matter what he believed! LIFE continues beyond whatever physical circumstances we find ourselves in, and it's up to us to learn from our experiences and grow as individuals. If we choose not to learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them - either in this lifetime or the next - until we finally understand the lesson and grow. It is for each of us to decide how we want to use whatever wisdom we come upon in our lives, and there are rewards and consequences according to our decisions. drydreamer

[aeroue]

I go with makidas explanation the reincanration if you choose etc.

just canne be bothered to explain again cause its basically same.

[isadora]

I am an atheist. And by atheist I mean I don't believe in any form of god (Yahweh, Vishnu, Xenu, etc). I believe that religion and god is just a need within man and society to explain what happens.

To blame the good and to give the praise to.

God, and its cohorts, are merely a societal need to not be alone. To not have to think that when we die all we are is a rotting corpse in the earth that is fodder for the worms and other insects.

Hell is used as a threat and something to console the living when a bad person is killed (honestly, that's why most countries that still have the death penalty are also religious, on some level I bet you that they think when that person dies they go to hell).

I have never believed in a god, I can't remember any clear memory where I have felt that divine protection of a god or a savior, it has always just been me and random chances that life is full of.

But of course, if God is your belief, I can't judge, I can't tell you you're wrong. But I refuse to accept it as my answer to the mysteries of life.

Nothing will ever be: "oh well 'cause God willed it" etc.

[fred_now]

I also do not believe in god. I feel that when we die we will rot in the ground like every other creature walking this planet. However, I am unsure what happens the "observer" (The something inside of all of us that makes us who we are). More info about the "observer" is located at [url]http://www.whatthebleep.com/[/url]. This is a site based on a movie about quantum physics.

[Lord_Mizaru]

God is there. He's quite real. He set the laws in motion that govern the universe, now he just watches His work in action. Sure He helps out when it's needed, but for the most part it's like playing the Sims and not interfering with them :P

Why is it set that way? Damned if I know. But it is, and it's something I'm sure of for various reasons which I won't ever discuss :P

[sandy82]

I throw out a theory, for what it's worth. As it happens, the notion includes a few elements from many of the preceding posts. The Deism of Lord_Mizaru, for example, and fred_now's question about what happens to the "observer."

Let's start with the Deism of Lord_Mizaru and Thomas Jefferson. God, in effect, winds up the clock of creation and then, for the most part, lets it tick away. Whether by initial intervention but certainly by subsequent evolution, Man develops from his predecessors. He gradually becomes self-aware, conscious of himself as an individual, conscious that he can make decisions. The observer has arrived and knows "me-ness." Next, Man's individuality and sense of time (and ego) make it impossible for him to believe that his being is finite. The energy of thought, of emotion, of pleasure and pain--these must be immortal because Man cannot fathom a point of termination.

Once Man arrives at that stage of awareness and thought, he has promoted himself to eternal existence, at least prospectively. Explanatory myths (neither necessarily true nor false) supply destinations for the observer, the awareness, the "me"....the soul....after the body has withered and decayed.

Just as Adam Smith was the economic genius who showed that individual competition could lead to social good, the behavioral genius long before was the shaman, witch doctor, priest who gradually discerned/devised the ethical notions of good and evil, represented spatially as heaven and hell.

Adam Smith could never hold a candle to the sheer inventiveness and audacity of these self-described intermediaries. Suddenly, Man knew hope, fear, guilt, reward, and--by chance, you understand--reliance on the shaman/priest for guidance. Suddenly, Man had a purpose that fit perfectly with his ego-induced sense of immortality: the purpose of life was...how to get to the good place. Rules were born, Cecil B. DeMille devised commandments for Charlton Heston to carry, and fear inspired good conduct just as effectively as did faith. Man needed a reward in return for behaving, just as Adam Smith knew he needed a reward for working. Faith in a hereafter, born of human self-awareness and pride, evoked improved social interaction in the here-and-now. The earth and mankind reaped the benefits of belief...and illusion.

In the end, humans die and are buried. No heaven, no hell, no reward, no punishment. No self-awareness, no ego, no soul. No nothing. By then it is too late to be bad.

Every so often Thomas Jefferson's Deity rewinds his clock.

[fred_now]

sandy82, so you agree with me that there is no God, and no heaven nor hell? I enjoyed reading your post. Have you ever heard of neo-tech. It's a concept included in a one hundred dollar book I bought a few years back. One of the ideas matched with what you said in your post. The one about developing the conscious mind. The book states that moving into a conscious self was the first step we as humans have taken. There is said to be another step, which brings us to "neo-thinking." There is many complicated details to this whole neo-tech concept. There is a website which further explains the details at http://www.neo-tech.com/index.php

EDIT: For anyone still confused on neo-tech ideas, below I included a response I typed to someone who was also confusd.

I could only wish that I myself could read all of it and absorb all of the information neo-tech has to offer. Think of neo-tech as evolving. All humans have already evolved from an ape-like mind, and neo-tech claims that there is another evolution. This new level, if you get there, will bring you power, money, and women. The most important part is the power. The extreme power of neo-tech enables you to control anything and everything in your life. I have an intrest in neo-tech because of that reason. Think of it like this: If you tried to control an ape or a monkey, you could lure it around with a banana or something, right? Complete control. Think of what it would be like to evolve your brain to make what humans are like today, seem as if they were like the ape or monkey. You become much smarter, and everyone will be at your feet.

[sandy82]

fred_now, thanks for a very interesting message. I made that post based on some ideas that have come to me over the past six months or so. I haven't read, or even seen, anything on the subject. It sounds as though someone else had a similar idea...probably long before I did. If not, I'll sue!! :)

My main thrust there was that even if there is a God, why is Man so arrogant as to assume that God cares about him at all? Maybe we as a species constitute the pimple on the ass of universe-wide progress. It may be only our self-awareness and self-absorption that have caused us to place ourselves so near the hypothetical center. LOL, a narcissist, I am not.

That said, my post was more a logical construct than a statement of belief. I think the logic is hard, but not impossible, to refute. I've never seen God, he's never talked to me, and my life has been okay so far, but nothing that shows I'm so special. I know a lot of people who seem to be a lot happier than I am--for whatever that's worth. By the same token, I have seen the dignity of certain churches, and I value tradition and ritual...even if there may be no God to back them up.

I agree with your book on the development of self-awareness. The Roman Catholic Church, of which I am not a member, holds the doctrine that the development of self-awareness was the birth of the soul. I pass that along in case anyone is interested.

Whether or not that's true, it may be that the notion of "God's chosen people" is the height of human vanity...and the very opposite of the truth.

Rather than "God's chosen people," we may be dealing with "people's chosen God."

Thanks for the website info. I'll go take a look.

[quote="fred_now"]sandy82, so you agree with me that there is no God, and no heaven nor hell? I enjoyed reading your post. Have you ever heard of neo-tech. It's a concept included in a one hundred dollar book I bought a few years back. One of the ideas matched with what you said in your post. The one about developing the conscious mind. The book states that moving into a conscious self was the first step we as humans have taken. There is said to be another step, which brings us to "neo-thinking." There is many complicated details to this whole neo-tech concept. There is a website which further explains the details at http://www.neo-tech.com/index.php[/quote]

[Play]

You die and...well you die. Just cause where humans we don't go anywhere else...we just become dirt. Everything else is just somting you want to happen to make you feel better.

I do not belive in god in any shape or form. I don't think theres anything that controls us or tells us what to do. I don't think theres a hell or a hevan cause it makes no sense at all...I don't understand why people belive in hell and not santa clause...

(Sorry if i offened anyone...)

[fred_now]

I couldn't agree with you more sandy82. Everything you said is everything that I too believe.

About the conscious awareness and the soul being born; I believe that is also true. Ancient humans were like many animals are today. We were nature oriented, didn't think for ourselves, "soul-less", and dependent on anything but ourselves. These ancient people were very much "right brained" and could sometimes hear voices or hallucinate. These voices were thought to be from the gods, or God. Ones who more frequently heard voices and hallucinated were said to have stronger connections with the gods, and were the ones in power. When the first human evolved to the conscious mind, they easily took over the extremely reliant ones, for as they were thought to be gods, themselves. These new evolved people, are who we are today. All of this information came from what I have learned through neo-tech. As I said before, neo-tech claims that there is yet another evolution that we as humans are to go through. This next step will bring human minds into a completely self-dependent, creative, and powerful state.

I study the ways of neo-tech, because I believe it is true, and I want to evolve ahead of the pack. This may sound weird, but powerful thinking is what I’ve always craved. Any kind of knowledge, improvement that will change my life for the better, is what I’m shooting for. I hope I’ve intrigued a few people out there to go check out neo-tech. The link I posted earlier goes to the homepage but it is a little hard to navigate the through the site from there. This link leads to the site map, and contains all of the contents of the site >> [url]http://www.neo-tech.com/sitemap-big.html[/url]. I stronly urge whoever reads this post all the way through to go and learn a little more about neo-tech, for as it might greatly improve your look at life.

[Mallic]

I believe in god, but not in the same way that Christens do. I sort of agree with what makidus says about planes, but only in the very general sence. A sort of overruleling diety, but it is far from logic (even though this is the excuse to get out of explaining it). One diety is sort of logical, but one going under differant nams is even more. Souls are equal of how many people there are in the world (with new souls being created) but a soul can chose WHERE and WHEN he get incarnated INTO. A newly concived baby doesn't have a soul, but thoughout the course of pregnacy, he/she (The baby, as souls don't have genders) may be chosen by a soul as a body on this plane. There is no hevan/hell (though there may be purgatory for unruly souls) so souls go back and come from the same plane(s)

This is my theory, but in reality (or is it?) I think each person is judged by what they could have achived in life. Red Dwarf paraphrase: Just have to lead a worthwhile life.

[makidas]

Soon as the title of this thread is "Theories about god," here's my theory. All thought takes on form whether here on the physical or astral or otherwise. An example would be for me, I wished I would die when I was in high school, I got cancer about 3 months later. I believed the cancer was going away, I told myself everyday, guess what happened (which is sort of what drew me to hypnosis, but that's another story). In any case all thought takes on form somewhere. So with that in mind here goes, man created god. All gods from all religions exist. The more people that believe in the same thing, the more powerful the entity becomes. That would likely make the Christian god most powerful, not to say that makes other gods less relevant. I believe in the Christian god, but I do not worship him because I know he is man made, just like I believe in the Egyptian gods and godesses. As a matter of fact, I don't pay much tribute to any gods except myself. Now I'm not saying I'm a god persay, but I am saying that we are all our own gods and paying tribute to yourself (treating yourself for your accomplishments) is a good thing. Nothing pisses me off more than when someone accomplishes something great and then says "Thank god," or when I do something for someone, say I give them a gift and they say, "Thank god." How about being thankful to yourself? Or me for that matter. I'm not so arrogant to worship myself or to expect much of anything from anyone, but when people go to church or a sinagog or a temple etc. they are not worshipping the true god. They are worshipping a god that they created together collectively. Each god has it's own powers and methods etc. They're all real like I've said before. But they are real because we believe they are real. They are capable of incredible things because we made them capable of incredible things. When we worship them we give them power. When we give them power they empower us and that is how miracles are made. I'm probably forgetting something, but there is my ever changing theory. Great thread Mallic. :wink:

[Mallic]

I love these threads, but my one on IMDB got so very, very, very flamed, by people who would always talk about how their Philosophy major put then above lesser mortals, but continually dodged any questions about their beliefs.

[sandy82]

It must have been irritating, but also amusing, to see people drag out their degrees as though they were knights' shields in the Middle Ages--complete with collegiate "coats of arms." In contrast, everybody here has relied on the strength or interest of their own viewpoints, and that's the way it should be.

Mallic, I haven't had my fourth cup of coffee yet today; so I'm a little slow. What is IMDB?



[quote="Mallic":ff8d3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i7b]I love these threads, but my one on IMDB got so very, very, very flamed, by people who would always talk about how their Philosophy major put then above lesser mortals, but continually dodged any questions about their beliefs.[/quote:ff8d3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i7b]

[Mallic]

Internet Movie DataBase

[url]http://www.imdb.com/[/url]

[erika_davis]

The God of a bimbo-wannabe -

The God of a bimbo would naturally be a simplistic one, no deep theology or explanations would be needed to explain her/him.

That God would have begun as an idea or a force that was able to create itself and that’s exactly what it did. It began as and became the “force of creation”.

And since no bimbo would dare try to explain all the details of this “force of creation” (this task would result in severe headaches and trauma as well as just take too much time away from creating her own little world and personality), it’s easy to understand how the bimbo would also think that no other human would ever be smart enough to understand or explain the secrets of creation and the universe.

What a waste of time and energy ………..Hawking,that dude in the wheelchair who thinks he can explain black holes and how space and the laws of thermodynamics will show us the Big Bang, the pope who thinks he converses with God, and the yogis who want us to transcend into the white light of the cosmos are so full of billshit. And ……. they are not even sexy - a guy with a paralyzed dick, a guy who flits around in a robe swinging incense, and a guy who chants from The Tibetan Book of The Dead. What in God’s name would they know about life and creation, much less how to Bang anything?

But, isn’t it wonderful how the universe is just a big beautiful oyster for all to explore and enjoy, Who cares how it came to be, we will never know anyway, we are children of the creation, so lets just play like the children we are. If this bimbo is ever going to touch the face of God, it will be when he’s giving her the Big Bang.

[missypuss]

Having read what Mallic posted on his thoughts that each of us is our own god (or goddess) I would have to say I thouroughly agree with him... I also believe that our wants needs and desires can make things happen.. therefore the old saying "do unto others as thou would be done to " holds much truth with me. I also am a bit of a believer in that; which if you desire something enough you will get it, however if it is not yours to desire or if it comes to you because you wanted it soooo much & sent that thought out into the universe then you should expect a payback... and I think the only wants needs and desires that dont get a payback are the ones we send out in our thoughts without a hidden adgenda!! Make sense to anyone??

[babytroll]

When you die, your existance ends except in the memories of others.

[sandy82]

[quote="babytroll"]When you die, your existance ends except in the memories of others.[/quote]

Interesting idea, babytroll, and I know what you mean. I am guessing that you would include in your viewpoint (as aids to memory) such items as endless newsreel footage of FDR, his wife's dental records, and George Washington's picture on the dollar bill.

[deathjdstn]

wow tough subject here


lets see i believe in god and i believe that every religan believes in a god but in my opinion we believe in the same god without even knowing and here is why


the bible and other type of religous books are like history books if u place them all together u will see alot of simulatories all these books are is interuptations but of the same stuff.

like sone of god is jesuas but some other religans think of other types of figures of the son of god like mohman if ispelled that correctly but what is to say why not god have more than 1 sone which they decided to be the messenger for god in diffrent parts of the world and such.

[loadedkaos]

I kinda like the point that Chaos Magic makes "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." That pretty much means that their is no true way but yet people get something out of their beleifs so it must work even though it may not really be the "true religion" if there is such a thing. Ultimately I think of religion as a vehicle for results not as a life style.

[makidas]

I often wonder what the hell Jesus would think if he knew so many worshipped him,:lol:. Is it ok to be pro-christ and anti-christianity? Deathjdstn, I used to believe the same thing, I eventually came to the realization that we all worship false man-made gods, not that I don't believe in the creative power, which I do. The creative power is the closest thing to the true god anyone could worship in my opinion, although it isn't really a god.

[deathjdstn]

well i do not believe in god as some would think of him as a single person or being and i believe he is all around us everything we touch feel love hate etc... because i do believe that there is a god in the since that not as a person but as energy of a higher power that created life and then let life ran its course with a foundation and life just evolved on its own from lifeless things like rocks to small orgisisms to more complext living beings such as mamals and such.

[babytroll]

[quote="sandy82":e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/id9ef5][quote="babytroll":e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/id9ef5]When you die, your existance ends except in the memories of others.[/quote:e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/id9ef5]

Interesting idea, babytroll, and I know what you mean. I am guessing that you would include in your viewpoint (as aids to memory) such items as endless newsreel footage of FDR, his wife's dental records, and George Washington's picture on the dollar bill.[/quote:e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/id9ef5]

Yes those are just ways of storing memories.

[gurlbidesign]

If god exists he has a huge sense of humor. And why spend a moment worrying about what is waiting for us? We will all find out soon enough and our time would be better spent concentrating on what we are doing now. If you lean towards rewards in the afterlife....earn them now, if you lean towards no afterlife.....enjoy now. Now is all we have, everything else is just expectation, hope, or memory.

[missypuss]

Here Here!! Girlbidesign..

[GAYTTO]

I don't believe in gods the way the religions are suggesting.

But I believe that gods, angels, saints, evils, demons, are existing within us.
I did believe in God (the christian one, you know the one Elvis Costello is singing about in "God's Comic") in my 20's 'cause at that time I needed him to be alive to help me. Step by step, year by year, I realized that I could help myself. Thanks God, cheers , Bye bye.

I realized that my prayers could be realized no matter who I pray.
It's quite difficult to explain how I did come to this point.
Meditation had the same results. Now I think, since I am really interrested in that matter now, that self-hypnosis (all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, isn't it) has the same positive effect on me. I am feeling as well as the time I was praying God, and later my guardian angels.

I know it may look sooo pretentious to say that I'm God, angels and the saint apostles all by myself. I am more humble than that. My belief is that we all have power within our spirit our soul our mind. Choose wich one for your own convenience. Furthermore, our power are interconnected. You can call that telepathy, sort of. And the mass communion makes us fell joined in the same passion, to achieve a goal. That's why the new charismatic christian churches from South America are working so well. Cause it works.

Prayers - meditation - yoga - hypnosis are all alike. They help us to find out within us the power to go on.

And when we die ? David Bowie and the Bible have the answer.
Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. You shouldn't mess with Major Tom.

[BobbyS]

Dragging the subject down to its roots, I'd have to say I would have to say I would be an atheist it wasn't for the question of why the universe exists and why humans seem to have the world handed to them on a plate - a hospitable (though rapidly declining) environment, a selection of both meat and vegetables for us omnivores to eat, a species that can be readily domesticated, plants to clean up after us and raw minerals that do so many different things for us - I still can't get my head around how intricate and complicated a computer must be as a machine that uses fuel to run and plastic and metal to operate.
When you think of how easily humans have developed it does make you wonder if someone or something organised it for us. (Of course I believe in evolution from micro organisms btw - I'm not a hippy.)
Also, really, why ARE we here? I'd say to reproduce - when we're at our strongest we're also at our most sexually potent. However, that seems pointless - that's no ultimate goal, so religion says 'to serve God'. Whatever you think of that premise, at least it answers the question.
Of course one could then ask 'What's the point of God's existence?' To which I'm stumped.

[sandy82]

[quote="BobbyS"]Dragging the subject down to its roots, I'd have to say I would have to say I would be an atheist it wasn't for the question of why the universe exists and why humans seem to have the world handed to them on a plate - a hospitable (though rapidly declining) environment, a selection of both meat and vegetables for us omnivores to eat, a species that can be readily domesticated, plants to clean up after us and raw minerals that do so many different things for us - I still can't get my head around how intricate and complicated a computer must be as a machine that uses fuel to run and plastic and metal to operate.
When you think of how easily humans have developed it does make you wonder if someone or something organised it for us. (Of course I believe in evolution from micro organisms btw - I'm not a hippy.)
Also, really, why ARE we here? I'd say to reproduce - when we're at our strongest we're also at our most sexually potent. However, that seems pointless - that's no ultimate goal, so religion says 'to serve God'.
Whatever you think of that premise, at least it answers the question.
Of course one could then ask 'What's the point of God's existence?' To which I'm stumped.[/quote]

Increasing numbers of people believe in Intelligent Design--especially the ones who weren't intelligently designed. Never misunderestimate their numbers. :wink:

One thing's for sure. Either God created cultures, or cultures created God. If I were selling CDs on TV infomercials (maybe the UK is spared these 3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i- or 6/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i-minute advertisements), I would make the case that the deity spoke to different people from different places in ways that they could understand. After all, if you were the Almighty, would you have sent Jeremiah to the Hebrews, wearing a bespoke wool suit, a T&A shirt (that's Turnbull & Asser, by the way :P ) and a Liberty paisley--and talking about conflict resolution therapy in hoch Deutsch? Some centuries later, wouldn't you have used a wise compromiser like Mohammed? He faced his ethnic brethren who took as many wives as they liked...and he whittled them down to four at a time. Probably the best deal he could make under the circumstances. On balance, a constructive one.

Also, when you think about it, it's not hard to believe in a god. Look at all the things we believe, with no shred of evidence. We believe that we will wake up tomorrow morning and that people will swap real bread and real coffee for pieces of paper daily increasing in number by the billions. Our currency is like musical chairs. Do you want to be left standing with a fistful of dollars, but no bread and coffee? Everything's fine, as long as you believe.

The shrinking American/Western attention span also helps in the belief process. Do people believe that anthrax poses a present danger to them? Probably not. Because they don't hear about anthrax all the time. But the truth is that nobody ever caught the anthrax mailer, and he's out there somewhere. The fact that he's still a threat but hasn't been caught---that's why the public doesn't hear about anthrax. And that's why many people believe it's not a present threat. In this particular case, people are believing exactly the wrong thing for exactly the wrong reason. See how useful faith is? We believe the happy void because politicians don't stress the unhappy fill.

How about West Nile virus? You in Britain are probably fortunate enough not to have to deal with this one yet. It's rarely mentioned these days. It has now worked its way via mosquito from the New York area all the way across the continent. No national headlines. That's another clear and present danger with no cure. A neighbor died of it last year. The newspaper carried no obituary, perhaps at the family's request. Perhaps at the request of others, made to the family. Who knows? But many have faith that it's not a problem.

Conversely, some still believe that nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons in Iraq pose a threat. That's what they were told. Over and over and over.

Some believe that their houses have skyrocketed in value, when in fact the interest rates plummeted. Since these people feel richer, they spend more money they don't have. That's close to an ultimate faith....when you put your roof and your solvency on the line.

Think of all the things that one or another of us believes--with no proof, no evidence, or because a politician either emphasized a point or distracted your attention from another point. Humans have no trouble with believing things that have no empirical basis. I'm surprised that we don't believe in at least 5/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i gods on Monday and 6/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i gods on Tuesday. Anybody who believes Britney Spears has talent will believe anything.

Why are we here? I have no idea. It seems that automatically to assume that we are part of some special mission is not a leap of faith but a flight of fancy. Maybe we're here because the Creator has an insatiable sense of humor. (What could be funnier, when you think about it, than FEMA people announcing to poor, hungry, ill-clothed, disoriented people that its officials will hand out unmarked $2,/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i debit cards to every adult in line....and then being surprised when they set off a near riot? Of course, it's not the poor people that are funny. It is the invincible ignorance of FEMA. If P.G. Wodehouse had invented FEMA, the Empress of Blandings would have looked like Einstein. Incidentally, I would have been happy to take part in a FEMA-inspired riot.)

As that great Creationist philosopher Mortal once said: "I am glad you are filled with the Spirit. It is not mine." Are we filled with any spirit? Is it really up to us to wonder what's the point of God's existence? Perhaps he's wondering about the point of ours.

America's Principal Employee identified three members of the Axis of Evil. Then APE started a war with the only one that had no viable nuclear program at all. There's no doubt about an intelligence failure: APE can't read well, and he has admitted it. He fails the Monty Hall test big-time. He picked the only door with nothing behind it.

The U.S. is not alone. The U.K. has a prime minister who is bursting at the seams to tell you about his chapel-based beliefs. But then he turned around and entered his child in a Catholic day school and thereby avoided central London's comprehensive schools...the creations of his own Labour Party. France has a president who, but for presidential immunity, would probably be ensconced in the penitentiary right now.

We've given God a good laugh. Maybe he's tired of vaudeville.
.

[missypuss]

Personally/ Ive just discovered the name of God..
Well the name of my God anyhow.. :twisted:

[JKnaugh13]

My only comment to those who do not believe in God is, to sit back and seriously think about a universe without a God and without an afterlife. Think about a time when you feel asleep and when you woke up it seemed like only a moment had passed. Death is often referred to as "dreamless sleep". Imagine having a dreamless sleep for eternity. If you really think about it like that it should make you frightened. In fact when I had my doubts about the existence of God I had that exact line of thought. In a split second my heart rate jumped to about 180 beats a minute and I felt alone in world. I'm not trying to scare the wrath of God into anyone, just sharing my own personal thought. For me, a universe without the existence of God is too scary a place to imagine.

[Downward]

Not to sound anti-religious, but i have a theory that all religions pertaining to jesus are really pertaining to the "Devil". If you think about it, if you wanted to fool people you'd create a falsified diety\icon and have a mass. That would pray to to the "Devil" aka "Jesus", because i'd be the easiest way.

[sandy82]

[quote="JKnaugh13"]My only comment to those who do not believe in God is, to sit back and seriously think about a universe without a God and without an afterlife. Think about a time when you fell asleep and when you woke up it seemed like only a moment had passed. Death is often referred to as "dreamless sleep". Imagine having a dreamless sleep for eternity. If you really think about it like that it should make you frightened. In fact when I had my doubts about the existence of God I had that exact line of thought. In a split second my heart rate jumped to about 18/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i beats a minute and I felt alone in world. I'm not trying to scare the wrath of God into anyone, just sharing my own personal thought. For me, a universe without the existence of God is too scary a place to imagine.[/quote]

JKnaugh, I like your argument. There's a slight flaw which is no reflection on you. In fact, it is difficult for the human mind to contemplate the prospects without that flaw....or one very similar to it.

You are supposing that a person's awareness survives his death. "Imagine having a dreamless sleep for eternity."

Don't imagine that. Imagine that your sense of self...and your "self"....ends when you die. Then there's no dreamless sleep. There's no fear. There's no "self" to have dreamless sleep or to feel fear.

I'm not buying or selling here. What I'm saying is that you're assuming an eternal "self" with/without the presence of God. The "self" might end at death, while God is eternal. The "self" might end at death, and there is no God. If you make a diagram, there are four possibilties here.

What frightened you was one of the four possibilities: no God, eternal "self". Then you later opted for: eternal God, eternal "self."

I had an idea that I neither believe or disbelieve. I'd be interested in your thoughts. In two connected parts.

(a) God is eternal, but each person's existence or being lasts only from physical birth to physical death.

(b) the notion of a person's eternal existence sprang from his self-awareness and his inability/unwillingness to imagine a creation in which he was not present.

A cynic would tell you that belief in the existence of heaven/hell is the greatest crowd control technique ever devised. What better way to make people behave as they are instructed is the "good" way? If there is a heaven, lots of benefits come from behaving.

[BobbyS]

Try this for too long and your head hurts; imagine death without an afterlife. Like Sandy82 says; no consciousness or even subconscious and no senses either. The aspirin's in the medecine cabinet.

[missypuss]

In respect to humans who believe in intelligent design..
And speaking as one who( perhaps as Sandy stated...) wasnt intelligently designed ...........:twisted:maybe....
Bobby ......
Whats wrong with hippies??????????? :wink:

[sandy82]

[quote="missypuss":642/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i39c7]In respect to humans who believe in intelligent design..
And speaking as one who( perhaps as Sandy stated...) wasnt intelligently designed ...........:twisted:maybe....
Bobby ......
Whats wrong with hippies??????????? :wink:[/quote:642/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i39c7]

Missypuss, BobbyS speaks very well for himself. He's not here at the moment.

What is your definition of Intelligent Design? How do you distinguish it from Evolution, on the one hand, and Genesis, on the other? Until we have the definitions clear and immutable, it's hard to have a discussion.

Since the concept of God will figure into the definitions, what name do you prefer for your God?

[quote="missypuss":642/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i39c7]Personally/ Ive just discovered the name of God..
Well the name of my God anyhow.. :twisted:[/quote:642/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i39c7]

In what respect does the concept of your God differ from the traditional Christian God? The issue is important because Intelligent Design and Genesis are intermeshed with a Fundamentalist Christian view of the Almighty.

Also, I can't get a clear idea of how your sentence tracks. Perhaps you could rephrase it. Then the idea formation and the logic will be clear to all readers, including me.

Many thanks.

[missypuss]

Sandy~ as always your devotion to your research on whichever topic is being debated is to be applauded..
You always have a myriad of facts and figures at your fingertips, ready to respond to the various tangeants and paths a subject digresses from..
In this case, and at this tangeant, I Missypuss........
was taking the rise out of myself......
Ergo "Intelligent design"....... :P
And I quite like hippies......!!!!!!!
And the name of my god is at the moment Chymos.....!! :wink: xx

[sandy82]

[quote="missypuss"]Sandy~ as always your devotion to your research on whichever topic is being debated is to be applauded..
You always have a myriad of facts and figures at your fingertips, ready to respond to the various tangeants and paths a subject digresses from..
In this case, and at this tangeant, I Missypuss........
was taking the rise out of myself......
Ergo "Intelligent design"....... :P
And I quite like hippies......!!!!!!!
And the name of my god is at the moment Chymos.....!! :wink: xx[/quote]

Thanks for the compliment, but I wasn't planning to do any research. I wanted to know at what level to pitch the answer. Also, I didn't understand your question. I'm glad I probed a bit because, for a while, I thought you were serious. Many thanks for a good, candid, and fun response!

As you know, then, "Intelligent Design" is the happy-talk version of the Genesis creation story. Bought and paid for with fundamentalist dollars that wound up, directly or indirectly, in the pockets of Madison Avenue PR sharpies whose mission was to take the indigestible edges off of a six-day creation, a whale that swallowed Jonah, a boat that contained two of "every" kind of animal, etc. I hope that you, I, and anyone you care about is not a product of "Intelligent Design"--since the concept, almost literally, came out of word processors and laser printers, and is held together with staples.

If you're thinking about the same sort of hippies that I am, they were more or less history quite some time ago. The scruffy, unkempt, beaded, bearded, raggedy, drugged generation of Peter, Paul, Mary, Mama Cass, and the first version of Sonny Bono (before he became a Republican Congressman supporting Ronald Reagan). Nothing wrong with them, but nothing to write home about, either. Some curdled their brains, but most survived the experience relatively unscathed.

BobbyS probably had in mind another meaning for the word "hippy", but he'll want to speak for himself on that. The concept of "Intelligent Design" is much newer than the "hippy" names I listed above.

I haven't seen Chymos in a while. I think he spends a lot of time in the "special Forum" to which we peons don't have access. (A numerical total of 86 posts, but the contents of only 32 posts show--a good sign of the off-limits, invisible Forum.) A thoroughly pleasant, smart, witty, and principled person. I once asked him whether that was really his photograph in the avatar. I wish I had made a photograph of the answer that appeared on my screen! Give him my best. I hope he stays your "god" for much longer than a moment. It would be hard to do better (a compliment to both of you), and very easy to do infinitely worse.

Hope you're having a good weekend!

[BobbyS]

Wow, OK, just to avoid hippy hate mail here, let me just specify - I am not against hippies, in fact I kinda like them - except for the ones that don't wash.
I was just pointing out that I'm not a hippy myself as part of the justification of my point - to show I don't reject science for mysticism.

[Agriff]

I believe that there is a supreme being that created the earth as his plaything, perhaps even the universe as we know it they created, and that theories of the big bang were true, but it was just like a kid setting off a firecracker.

From then on the kid just thought of it as a complex videogame. He watched the planets pull together, then he tweaked parts of it so they would have a better outcome and not just die out in 5 mins. It made life possible and then from there on it just watched. Perhaps we're just specimen 1 and millions of lightyear away (perhaps steps away in the being's scale) there is another race that is growing with us, and then someday the climax of the finale will be reached and we will compete for existance with the other race(s).

As for when we go when we die, we dont go anywhere. Its excactly like an eternal sleep, because if you noticed Jknaugh13 said "a time when you feel asleep and when you woke up it seemed like only a moment had passed" meaning there was no conciousness involved. This is simply just the only thing that could possibly be like death and is not meant to infer that there is conciousness after life.

[ipnosi]

When I was a kid I was a devout Congregationalist (part of the Christian church), but that was aminly becuase that was what everyone told me was the truth (except for one kid in school who told me that I was going to go to hell because I wasn't Catholic).
Since then, my views have changed drastically. When I got to thinking about it (somewhere in my early teens) I couldn't see how one beeing could be able to create the entire universe and concluded that if the universe was created by some creature, then there would have to be more than one of them. In short I believe that there are many gods, I don't know how many, if they each have a specific job, or anything like that, but I really don't care because I seem to be getting along pretty well on my own.
As for what happens after death, I don't know. I have yet to die (that I can remember) and don't plan on it happening anytime soon, but if it does I'll get back to you about it. Until someone can prove to me otherwise, then I'm going to go with the reliable statement "anything's possible."

[loadedkaos]

Why would anyone waist time trying to imagine death without an after life their would be nothing to imagine. Well atleast from the daydreamers point of view. That's one of the joys of being an athiest when it's all over everything you did was pointless well atleast when your talking about the great scheme of things. Maybe I'm just rambling but lately I've been thinking that life is pointless, chaotic and paradoxil. With all this going on in our existence, with abscence of a real purpose it's easy to see why people would invent a character such as god. As well as a final destination such as heaven hell winterland the football shaped spaceship or whatever tickles your fancy. Don't get me wrong I love life as much as the next person and I try to make my life have a goal and a purpose, but I don't think there was a goal or purpose that was predetermined for me when I was conceived. I think relegion is the easy answer.

[goldragon_70]

I believe that god is god, and not just a half. He/she is all things: Devil, Jesus, you, me, the rock next door, the earth, ETC. In other words, we are a construct of god made from him/her, and so is everything in the physical and spiritual. As for death; I believe in reincarnaton, to were ever we chose to go (including other planits), so long as we experience for god, or in other words, we are the ones that can see his creation with new eyes, and not all knowing ones. From that we learn pain, pleasure, loss, and love when we thought there was none. Well there is much more to it then this, but I don’t want to bore ya’ll.

[sandy82]

It's not boring at all. Your views (and mine) wouldn't please the creationists or, probably, the 'intelligent designers." You may have seen that there's a court case on the subject going on in Pennsylvania. I see that you're from Tennessee. There was a very similar case there in 1925, and the pro-Darwin side won. Clarence Darrow was the lawyer on the side of the teacher who had been fired for teaching evolution. A very old William Jennings Bryan was the lawyer for the school board who had fired the teacher. What do people in your part of Tennessee think about the evolution/creationist issue these days?

[goldragon_70]

As for evolution vs. creation, I believe things are a bit more complex then they seem, and that both are involved. Unfortunately, I had not heard of the cases, and what the mass wants (from a call tech experience), is not always what is smart. I think many religions had it right, or had part of it right, but time allows those who are not the same to corrupt them. I can't believe the bible, because no matter how you put it, even if I only look at the New Testament and ignore the Old Testament (like the correct Christian would do), you still have to realize it has been translated buy a mortal more then once before you read it. Part of my belief though is that all the different beliefs, the bad things that happen, and well everything else exists, because the world would not be as colorful and interesting as it is, if they didn’t exist. This will sound crazy, but in my mind I hear the voices of the other souls (angles, demons, etc.), and they have thought me, or fate has brought pieces here and there to me, and no I'm not right brained, I use both sides and more visual, then auditory.

I agree with the Pro-Christ / Anti-Christian post that I read earlier, only for the fact I think Christ came with a good message, and we just f**cked it up. I also don’t like the new scare them into believe tactic that allot of churches are using.

It’s nice too, to see this topic hasn’t been flamed yet, and the posts are friendly to read.

[davelowe1977]

[quote="goldragon_7/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i"]I believe that god is god, and not just a half. He/she is all things: Devil, Jesus, you, me, the rock next door, the earth, ETC. In other words, we are a construct of god made from him/her, and so is everything in the physical and spiritual. As for death; I believe in reincarnaton, to were ever we chose to go (including other planits), so long as we experience for god, or in other words, we are the ones that can see his creation with new eyes, and not all knowing ones. From that we learn pain, pleasure, loss, and love when we thought there was none. Well there is much more to it then this, but I don’t want to bore ya’ll.[/quote]
Sometimes I despair. When are we collectively going to move on from this kind of thing? Why is there a need for a supreme being? Can someone put forward some evidence that would stand up in court to support any of these beliefs being true? As a commited aetheist all this mumbo-jumbo gets me really wound up. So I will stop before I post something offensive.

[goldragon_70]

[quote="davelowe1977"]Sometimes I despair. When are we collectively going to move on from this kind of thing? Why is there a need for a supreme being? Can someone put forward some evidence that would stand up in court to support any of these beliefs being true? As a commited aetheist all this mumbo-jumbo gets me really wound up. So I will stop before I post something offensive.[/quote]

Explain how matter exists were nothing should. Even the big bang had to get energy and matter from somewhere. Besides I could say that you can't prove that he/she doesn't exists, but better yet, prove to me that any other theory (technically they are hypothesis that were generally excepted as true) of the beginning, in court.