WarpMyMind

I would appreciate hearing thoughts on what is considered the hazards and risks of engaging in hypnotism with a submissive.

I welcome discussion on this subject.

Lady Jane

It makes sense to me to take the same approach to hypnosis as to BDSM itself; safe, sane and consensual. (This is based on the assumption that the dominant is the hypnotist - the other way around would be a bit weird). Alternately there's RACK (risk-acceptable-consensual-kink) for those who practice edgeplay and are willing to accept the risk present in whatever they're doing, that works too. In fact, hypnosis should take this approach even more seriously, as in BDSM only the body is directly under the dom's control whereas with hypnosis both the body and mind can be.

Safety is a major consideration, whether you practice edgeplay or not. You'd have to make sure that the submissive is still physically and mentally safe under the dominant's control. For example, let's say that a trigger was implanted that made the sub feel pain as pleasure. It would make for a highly enjoyable session, but the sub might not realise if the dom's doing serious, long-lasting damage if they can't feel the pain these injuries cause. They might be so enthralled that they neglect to use their safeword if they DO notice. Accidents do happen, even under the most skilled dominants.

'Sane' is even more important, given what hypnosis can do to the mind. You'd have to consider whether you want effects to be temporary (triggers) long-lasting (training) or even permanent (curses). Something a submissive initially agrees to as one of the latter, say, they might find uncomfortable or unbearable at a later date and be unable to remove the effects. At this point they'll have a serious effect on the sub's mind, possibly even leading to mental damage or negative changes in personality.

Consensual is a little harder. It's easy enough to say that a couple should both fully agree to whatever they're doing beforehand, but in a scene, a sub can use a safeword to let the dom know if things really need to stop. That can't happen if the sub has been conditioned to accept something no matter what; they're not in a position to say "I thought this was a neat idea, but on trying it I'm not into it". At that point they lack the free will to choose to submit, and it takes on tones of slavery instead of servitude.

Consensual is a little harder. It's easy enough to say that a couple should both fully agree to whatever they're doing beforehand, but in a scene, a sub can use a safeword to let the dom know if things really need to stop. That can't happen if the sub has been conditioned to accept something no matter what; they're not in a position to say "I thought this was a neat idea, but on trying it I'm not into it". At that point they lack the free will to choose to submit, and it takes on tones of slavery instead of servitude.

They don't really give up their free will at any time, even if they're hypnotized in addition to being tied up or whatever. If their subconscious isn't "into it" then they'll still be able to give you the safeword or otherwise let you know that they don't want to go there. You can lower their inhibitions about trying something (and if they knew beforehand what they wanted to try, odds are their subconscious is okay with it), but if you do something they don't like they'll still tell you.

(This is based on the assumption that the dominant is the hypnotist - the other way around would be a bit weird)

It'd sure make more sense for the Dominant to be the hypnotist (more stuff you can do), but in some cases (like mine :P) the sub is the hypnotist and uses it to set up scenes where the Dominant's dominant side is even more in control.

The BIG problems happen with triggers.

And with subjects who become very literal in trance.

Too few people use common sense and think things through and too many people use trigger phrases that are too common and which could cause a subject to have a trigger happen by accident when their hypnotist isn't around to explain to both the subject OR the other people around what is going on.

So having a subject react to something like the mannequin trigger from one of the files could be a problem if the phrase is overheard in a department store and the hypnotist isn't around (and, worse, if the subject is there on their own!)

The subject could even wind up in a psychiatric ward for a while because of such a reaction, depending on just how responsive to that trigger they might be.

Now take it out further to one of the more outlandish triggers, like stripping, or jerking off and you may even have a criminal offense happening if the subject is responsive enough and open enough to humiliation to react to the trigger, despite being in public.

Boze moi!

I agree with Slipstream and Jacara

Hypnotism should be a tool in a D/s relationship and when viewed in that light it is like a cane or a crop.... used within the bounds of the relationship it is fine - take it beyond those bounds and someone gets hurt.

I have always found the use of hypnosis in D/s to be a means of enhancing the experience and often speeding up the learning curve of the submissive as acceptance level is higher (or is it that the resistance level is lower?) and I can move ahead more rapidly than without.

Trust is the biggest issue when control is exchanged.

Regarding Slipstream's concern about triggers, I'd agree that these open triggers (when anyone can say "____ time for you" and have it affect you) are a big concern. If hypnosis is used in any monogomous relationship (D/s or otherwise), the triggers should be set up to only respond to that person (unless the whole point is to have the person triggered in public, which are kinky as long as it's not a trigger which could cause the subject problems).

True, but the triggers are NOT a part of common language(with a couple exceptions that I should probably change). Beyond that, if you are in a group where more than one person might trigger you there is always the choosetrig file that lets the listener decide who may and may not trigger them. There's also a file that lets you take a timeout from all training/triggers. This website is too generic to set the files so only one person can trigger you, and if it was we'd have people complaining that they wanted more than one person able to do it. Can't win them all.

Jacara wrote:Regarding Slipstream's concern about triggers, I'd agree that these open triggers (when anyone can say "____ time for you" and have it affect you) are a big concern. If hypnosis is used in any monogomous relationship (D/s or otherwise), the triggers should be set up to only respond to that person (unless the whole point is to have the person triggered in public, which are kinky as long as it's not a trigger which could cause the subject problems).

Id have to say I agree with EMG , when I stated listening to the files , many moons ago, I listened to "Choose Trig" and often until I had convinced myself that no one except he, who I allowed to trigger me could do it.

I must say that in all this time theres never ever been an occasion when my triggers have caused an embaressing incident, either in public or in the company of people I wouldnt want it happening in front of.. ..

Safe -Sane- but mosy importantly people- Consensual..... we have a choice.

Thank you all who responded with thoughtful comments.

To distill, this, consensuality is the primary point. Secondly, safety and tied to that triggers. There in lies the Dominant's responsiblity to have care for the submissive. I appreciate all the comments.

I continue to seek or identify what are the risks to the submissive, who is in a consensual hypnotic exercise with the Dominant? Are there any? What are appropriate responses if a "land mind" is "hit"? Is this a non-issue?

Lady Jane

If you're using hypnosis in the context of a pre-existing, ongoing relationship, then the issues of consent and power dynamics aren't really going to be that important, are they? You'll have already dealt with them.

Depending on how experimental you get with what you're doing, and the personal history of the submissive, you'll want to be mindful of abreaction. It's a term borrowed from psychodynamic psychotherapy (psychoanalysis). If you're going to play "deep," you need to be ready to deal with whatever you find.

Definitions of the term and hints about what to do with it are online. You'd do well to find someone with some real training to guide you through this particular issue. It's entirely possible that you'll never encounter it. If you do, though....

-- Blink

i have been on this board off and on almost since the beginning. By and large deep trances have eluded me so change comes slow. What i have noticed is that change actually comes fast and completely after a long time. my personal life has been hectic with times in which i am clearly owned interspersed with times in which i am unowned and on my own.

Recently many of the Dark Cage sexual animal scripts have taken effect. i'm not clearly owned at the moment, although i have some hope that is changing. Being a sexual animal is very disruptive to day to day life. i am fortunate that i don't have to hold down a full time job to support myself because i fear that i wouldn't be able to focus on the non-sexual world well enough to keep a job.

i think that there isn't a down side as long as you are securely owned with a Master who is ready and able to provide external control over your behavior. i sometimes scare myself because of the internal, self control that i have lost when i don't yet have security in external control.

This is a wonderful adventure and i am very pleased about the way my body feels, about the strength of my needs. i just wish that my ownership was more clearly defined and could provide more structure for my life today.

traci

LadyJane wrote:I continue to seek or identify what are the risks to the submissive, who is in a consensual hypnotic exercise with the Dominant? Are there any? What are appropriate responses if a "land mind" is "hit"? Is this a non-issue?

Well, I'm not sure what, if any, context you have beyond it being consensual. Short answer - so long as the Dom doesn't intend harm and has at least an average IQ, no harm can really be done with hypnosis. If the Dom intends harm, then yes, harm can be done.


Long answer / examples:

First possibility is similar to an abusive BDSM relationship without hypnosis - the Dom emotionally manipulates the sub for his own ends, to the point where she consents to things that are bad for her. No need to go into details on this, as they can be found online or in texts (for vanilla relationships at least.. not too different from kinky ones, from what I understand). With hypnosis, it just makes it that much easier for the Dom.

A submissive may perceive it as harmful if a Dom manages to bring out an aspect of her personality that she previously repressed. The sub winds up with a conflict between what the conscious and subconscious minds want. As long as the conflict gets resolved in a healthy way, no foul there.

As far as someone's mental minefield goes, so long as the Dom doesn't intend harm to the sub, there isn't really anything that can go wrong there. Yes, the sub may be uncomfortable; hell, they might have a flashback if whatever it was was that bad. People in trance don't tend to hide emotion - if they don't like where the hypnotist is taking them, they'll make it known quickly.

What to do if you hit someone's mine? Back them away from it, and be there to comfort them. Ask them if they would rather remain in trance, or wake up. If the want to wake up, do it slowly. Practice aftercare. Maybe talk about it later when the emotional reaction has faded... while they're awake. For some, trance removes emotional dampeners, and they feel everything intensely (think River in the Firefly series) and without control.

Hope that helped.

Im with the last poster on the potential for "mines".

When I began my journey to where I am today,

I got involved with a guy who was , as far as Im concerned, using his knowlege to exploit women.

I was niave, and found myself in a situation I didnt like or want to be in with a guy who I allowed to smooth talk me into it.

His comeback to me, when he uncovered something of a "Mine" was, well you asked me to do it, so you cant tell anyone about it, and if you do, what will people in your real life think of you?

They will all be completely horrified, and disgusted by your fetish, and will think you asked for it.

Luckily I was strong enough to cut him out of my life (snivelling little toad that he was) and I did get some support from a true friend.(Although she has never mentioned it, since the day I told her of it in a very distressed state, and she comforted me)

I think if the sub is vulnerable, then the person doing the work on them, should be someone who is able to be totally trusted by them.

And that, as with all relationships, takes time...

the three key things for D/s hypnosis.

I cannot stress enough that trust has to be present to even entertain true D/s. If it is D/s by force then I would assume that most on this site would have to put their hands up and say "go see the cops"

If the Dom is a predator then that in my opinion makes him lower than scum.

The situation Missypuss found herself in is unfortunately not unusual as a lot of submissives mistake aggression for assertiveness and demands for guidance

D/s is no different to vanilla when it comes to relationships.... some work some don't. The trick is to make sure that you don't leave yourself taking huge leaps of faith straight away. If there are things you do NOT want exposed then precondition your mind to block those things.... remind yourself that you do not want some things opened up hopefully that would conflict with instructions a predator might issue you in trance.

All in all.... safe... sane... consensual... trust trust trust

While in principle I agree with your post strictausmstr,

There is a part I dont agree with,

That is where you say it is up to the sub, to precondition their mind not to accept being opened up to things which they dont want opening up....

In my experience, I had no concious recollection of the "mindfield" which the guy I mentioned, uncovered,

And, as he was a predator, he uncovered it, then did nothing to help with what he had uncovered.

Aftercare, wasnt his strong point.

Being a predator was.

It is more about the trust, than about allowing yourself to be in the situation with a guy like the one I met.....

Take a long time, getting to know anyone, if you plan on allowing them access to the dark things which might lurk inside your mind, unknown to even yourself..........

missypuss.

missypuss.... what can I say except that how the hell can you protect yourself against something you did not know lurked. You are quite right and I - for one - had been too simplistic in my response

On behalf of all decent male Doms I apologise for this predator's effect on you

I hope you are learning to trust again

I have sent you a more detailed answer than this in a PM strictausmstr.

There are some things that should be kept private.

I think you will find it even more revealing,
and it explains where I am today,
Which is certainly not where I was then.

Unfortunately, not many girls share this fetish of ours it seems,

That makes for a double bind,

For every genuine guy out there,

Their are at least two predators, wanting to take advantage of any girls that do.

Thanks for your response.

I appreciate it. x

[quote="sub4fhyp"]The BIG problems happen with triggers.

And with subjects who become very literal in trance.

Too few people use common sense and think things through and too many people use trigger phrases that are too common and which could cause a subject to have a trigger happen by accident when their hypnotist isn't around to explain to both the subject OR the other people around what is going on.


my Lady thinks along these lines as well. Some of my triggers are left as included in the files from here, most are modified by Her to include one of the various pet names She has for me in particular circumstances. Used with common phrases, these made up names specifically tailor the triggers to me.

I threw the idea of 'safe, sane and consensual' out the window.

I came to the conclusion that BDSM is at best a case of "pick any two". I much prefer the RACK principle - there is a risk inherent in any activity. Acknowledge that risk, make it as safe as possible, and get on with having fun.

I wouldn't immediately consider hypnosis any more inherently dangerous than any other aspect of BDSM. I reckon I'd find more dangerous people that'd quite happily spread eagle a sub and go far beyond a phyiscal point than take the time to establish some form of rapport and level of communication to make hypnosis possible.

Most would be shy of letting someone in their head. Bit of kinky play starting with handcuffs .. much more likely. Equally as dangerous.

The fact that if hypnosis is possible - thats it's insidious and inside your head, is a risk of any relationship. The effects may be more drastic and amplified but any 'submissive' personality is in ways vulnerable.

I've made a lot of friends socialising on the BDSM scene. It's quite worrying to see two 'types' amongst the females on the scene. Young, with very little experience of either BDSM, life or sex - or 'broken' in terms of used, abused, or with something dark in their past.
Far more common than I ever expected in such a small puddle.

Part of the allure is to dig deep inside someone, find out what makes them tick and press buttons. I'm a sadomaschist, so yes I'd consider seeing someone humiliated and facing every conceivable emotion .. fun.
But if its taken out of the context of 'relationship', 'constructive', or 'caring' - its just abuse.

stan wrote:
I wouldn't immediately consider hypnosis any more inherently dangerous than any other aspect of BDSM.
..
Most would be shy of letting someone in their head. Bit of kinky play starting with handcuffs .. much more likely. Equally as dangerous.
.

I see what you're saying stan.
I agree but also see how it could be different.
The focus of hypnosis is relaxation and trust. Let's say (hypothetically) that the 'tist has no real power over the sub to force her into doing anything she doesn't want to.

But the hypnosis still aids in taking her into subspace, where she is calmer more relaxed, perhaps not thinking as clearly. Can you get the same without hypno? Perhaps.
But combine the trance with a slick tongue, and a pair of cuffs, and it can be a pretty dangerous mix -- at least with the wrong person.

On the broader topic. I think there are a lot of non-traditional dangers. It's possible to trance someone so that they recall bad memories. Or have nightmares. It's possible that the trance dulls the pain so that it's difficult to tell when it's gone too far. (hey, people have surgery while under with no pain).

The trance (well, the bondage too, for that matter) can create huge emotional attachment on both sides. (This doesn't have to be a bad thing, but can be when you're not ready for it).

I guess I think there are dangers that go beyond the "safe/sane/consensual" thing.

That said, there are dangers walking across the street. As long as you know what they are, you're ok. I think it just comes back to subbing and playing with the right people, that's all.

Anyway, that's my thought for the month.


--cal

VERY well said, Cal. Hypnosis can get a sub or slave into a state of trust that is deeper than they ordinarily would be in. Remember, conscious mind isn't at work and the subconscious doesn't evaluate. Give that power to one with a slick tongue and an ego, coupled with a less than deep concern for his/her subject and yes, it could be and has been so much more dangerous on many levels than mere physical.

Magic

You have to consider that the subconscious is literal,like a 3 year old child.
Under hypnosis,things do come up,more often than not.
The fact that you haven't hit upon them yet,doesn't mean they don't exist.
These "landmines" are generally what a hypnotherapist deals with.
either by reducing the anxiety and feelings,or reframing the entire event.
It's naive to say that no damage can be done,as long as the dominant intends no harm.
That may be the intent and the desire,but it's not always the case either.
You are never sure how someone will react to a given trigger or session,until you try.
Everyone is different,and responds in accordance with their past experiences etc.
Even something as blocking pain,can be detrimental to a subject;
pain (other than the erotic) is generally a warning signal that something is wrong.
Remove it,and further more serious damage can occur.
In one case,I was installing a submissive orgasm on command trigger,
(which I had used several times without incident)and not only did the trigger not work,I had to reinduct and remove it all;due to the fact that the subject had flatlined emotionally,and was walking around in a trance-like state.
Play safe,responsible,and I would suggest,at least using voice or in person,until you are certain of the response and safety of any session.
One more thing on "landmines",Things that are hidden or repressed from the conscious mind,are items that the subconscious kept from the conscious,usually because they were painful,and the subconscious was trying to protect the conscious.
Often times,they are entirely unknown or remembered by the conscious mind.
If the subject is unaware of such an issue,how can you be?
Hypnoplay is a wonderful thing,but it also bears the burden of responsibility and caring that a dom should posess anyway.

missypuss wrote:
In my experience, I had no concious recollection of the "mindfield" which the guy I mentioned, uncovered,

And, as he was a predator, he uncovered it, then did nothing to help with what he had uncovered.

Aftercare, wasnt his strong point.

Being a predator was.

It is more about the trust, than about allowing yourself to be in the situation with a guy like the one I met.....

Take a long time, getting to know anyone, if you plan on allowing them access to the dark things which might lurk inside your mind, unknown to even yourself..........

missypuss.

Thank you missypuss,
You expressed this so clearly. Even with just physical play dark secrets can be revealed. It is a comfort to hear your voice on the subject. Predators abound and when you are exploring you never know what you will find..
muriah

missypuss wrote:
For every genuine guy out there,

Their are at least two predators, wanting to take advantage of any girls that do.

Sometimes i do wish that the genuine guys were more willing to actually take me. i don't see a problem with the genuine guys being at least a little predatory. i respond most strongly to someone who has taken me and i don't think i will be part of a long term relationship which doesn't involve taking and then keeping on the part of my owner.

traci

maskedwomyn wrote:

missypuss wrote:
For every genuine guy out there,

Their are at least two predators, wanting to take advantage of any girls that do.

Sometimes i do wish that the genuine guys were more willing to actually take me. i don't see a problem with the genuine guys being at least a little predatory. i respond most strongly to someone who has taken me and i don't think i will be part of a long term relationship which doesn't involve taking and then keeping on the part of my owner.

traci

It all comes back to TRUST. In a D/s relationship, trust is at the core. The problem arises when one trusts, and doesn't realize that the other does not, or simply does not care. When we become emotionally involved with another person, if that person is a predator or manipulator and we don't realize it, then all sorts of things can go wrong. A predator, or whatever else you might wish to use to label him/her, reveals himself for what he/she is by failing to act appropriately in a situation where he/she is in control. And that is a violation of the TRUST that we placed into the hands of that person. It saddens me when i hear of such things because i have directly experienced it myself, and know how deeply the pain can cut. It makes it difficult, if not impossible, to trust another person ever again.

On the other hand, to respond to Traci's comment, the mere fact that one person is truly taking control in a D/s relationship is a type of predatory behavior, but it has to be done in the same context of that trusting relationship. There are limits to all actions, and a person has to remain aware that there is always the potential to cause either physical or mental harm to the one who is being controlled.