Aren't These Impossible?

[nuit09]

Yes.Yes. Dunno. but it is certainly impossible for you if you negate the possibility a priori before "trying" to do it. Therefore you are wasting your time here. :lol:

[nuit09]

the base line somatic template of all animals is female. the genetic instructions on the Y chromosome alter the tissue development of males into the proper sexual equipment for a male. yet without the Y chromosome guidance that tissue would form a vagina cervix, ovaries and uterus. So a male has the DNA instruction set for being a female inside every cell. Genes code for proteins which coordinate various operational functions in the body. You can cause an organism to exhibit a new trait either by altering the genetic code or by introducing the peptides the gene codes for. genes may be turned off or on. the female genes can be turned off and on. the switching action is controlled by other genes and RNA. so a mechanism exists to replicate the process of generating female or male organs. all one need do is replicate the gene sequence and turn them on in the proper order. or introduce the proper peptides to the proper places at the proper time.

Hypnotism has been shown to affect estrogen and testosterone levels.
heck, even something as simple as marital status, wive's pregnancy or athletic prestige afects testosterone profoundly. these are substances coded for and otherwise controlled genetically. therefore hypnosis can replicate the effects of genetic switching. whether this can be extended to controlling the chemical direction of somatic stem cells needed to generate new sexual organ tissue is something i am not qualified to lecture on. however it is my opinion that it is within the realm of possibility on a sound biological theoretical footing.

in addition to the generation of new sexual organs the old sexual organs would have to be reabsorbed. a process that does occur in other circumstances throughout the body but would need to be triggered and controlled somehow. again it is a matter of peptides and hormones but it would add to the complexity of the overall project significantly.

You asked if this was possible. based upon the above i say yes it is possible.

Whether it is realistically achievable or not in real conditions: it is technically possible if not exactly probable.

[Blink]

I don't get it. Why does this site have crazy hypnosis MP3s that I can't believe would work. Is producing more cum possible? Is developing psychic abilities possible? Is it possible for a penis to turn into a vagina?

Totally nutty. All of it. There are even some crazy bastards saying that hypnosis can make your bones grow. I mean, Jeezuz, if you can make bones grow you can do anything, but come on! Who's gonna believe that.

Me. You, maybe. Those crazy bastards are at Harvard's medical school.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/05.08/01-hypnosis.html

-- (don't) Blink.

[CuriousG]

Nuit, saying that you ought to have faith just because a lack will make it impossible in the first place is pretty silly, as having faith in things that don't work will waste your time. If Peter Pan came to my 4th story window and told me that all I needed to do to fly was "believe," I'd not trust him for a moment.

Frankly, if hypnosis could do things as fantastic as some of the files on this site, it'd attract a lot more attention. In reality though, it's little more than a turbo-placebo effect.

Hypnosis is by far most effective at affecting things that are all in the mind. You might manage other results through it, but the trouble of growing breasts or some comparable thing with hypnosis is surely greater than getting hormones, for the average person.

[nuit09]

Nuit, saying that you ought to have faith just because a lack will make it impossible in the first place is pretty silly, as having faith in things that don't work will waste your time. If Peter Pan came to my 4th story window and told me that all I needed to do to fly was "believe," I'd not trust him for a moment.

Not at all. but adamant faith is one prerequisite of doing the "impossible." Magick; if you will. a subject i am intimately familiar with. and with that faith coupled with a few other things, anything is possible. Skepticism has it's place, but it has no place within an operation itself. And that includes trying to do something through hypnosis. and no; belief is not sufficient unto itself. But it is a big part of the formula.

Frankly, if hypnosis could do things as fantastic as some of the files on this site, it'd attract a lot more attention. In reality though, it's little more than a turbo-placebo effect.

It can if used properly. As to the Placebo; perhaps that is all it needs to be...

Hypnosis is by far most effective at affecting things that are all in the mind.

What if that is the fault of the operator and not the tool?

You might manage other results through it, but the trouble of growing breasts or some comparable thing with hypnosis is surely greater than getting hormones, for the average person.

indisputably true. But efficiency is a separate question to whether it happens or not

[goldragon_70]

I don't get it. Why does this site have crazy hypnosis MP3s that I can't believe would work. Is producing more cum possible? Is developing psychic abilities possible? Is it possible for a penis to turn into a vagina?

If you doubt then why are you here?

[nuit09]

I'm only doubting certain ones. I never doubted all of them. By the way, how is it possible to produce more cum? Maybe if you at least make up something believable for me, maybe it will actually work because of mind over matter or whatever.

For one thing diet and nutrition can radically affect cum production. additionally; men with high testosterone levels often have higher sperm counts. people who regularly ejaculate eventually produce it at a faster rate. If you really doubt it perhaps you should ask male porn stars...

[Lissar]

As a biology student, I'm going to go ahead and say that it's really not possible to switch genders with hypnosis. In order to get rid of your current reproductive organs, your body would have to start attacking itself, effectively leaving you with an autoimmune disease. Your immune system destroys things based on whether said thing is self or non-self. If you start destroying self, it's not going to be pretty.

Do I think you can alter hormone production with hypnosis? Eh, don't know, but unlikely I think. Before anyone shouts about the subconscious, I'd like to point out that no form of consciousness really makes your body systems work. The parts of your brain that control all of these processes are not given instructions from any sort of conscious from what I can tell. Either way, if you want a hormone change, you're better off buying hormones than relying on hypnosis.

[nuit09]

As a biology student, I'm going to go ahead and say that it's really not possible to switch genders with hypnosis. In order to get rid of your current reproductive organs, your body would have to start attacking itself, effectively leaving you with an autoimmune disease. Your immune system destroys things based on whether said thing is self or non-self. If you start destroying self, it's not going to be pretty.

Do I think you can alter hormone production with hypnosis? Eh, don't know, but unlikely I think. Before anyone shouts about the subconscious, I'd like to point out that no form of consciousness really makes your body systems work. The parts of your brain that control all of these processes are not given instructions from any sort of conscious from what I can tell. Either way, if you want a hormone change, you're better off buying hormones than relying on hypnosis.

immune system response is not the only way to remove tissue (e.g; menstruation and the uterus.) and if you were really well educated in biology you would know the answer to the question of whether plain ol' psychology let alone hypnosis can effect hormone levels.

It is a fact published in peer reviewed medical literature that men's testosterone levels lower and raise in response to mate's pregnancy, winning or losing sports competition, marital status, and a host of other purely psychological factors. hypnosis alters psychology. therefore hypnosis can modulate hormone levels.

[nuit09]

Placebo is not necessarily a derogatory term. the placebo effect can have astonishing results. it is only some people who use the term to dismiss things they cannot dispute but still wish to debunk. my point was and perhaps i could have been clearer; placebo, magic, a miracle, a humongously improbable event outside of gaussian probability mean distribution; whatever it is called does not negate it's import or effectiveness. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

[Jack]

*laughs* Who is the master that makes the grass green?

[Lissar]

I consider myself well-educated in biology seeing as I am completing my eighth semester of biology (second semester of university introductory biology currently), and I am a biology major. And shedding the uterine lining is much different from shedding a penis and creating a vagina, especially since the internal structure of the male reproductive anatomy is incredibly complicated. Meanwhile, shedding the uterine lining is a response to ovulation, and the lining is meant to be shed. The cells are layered onto the inside of the uterus superficially, and the uterine lining consists mainly of mucous, along with some blood and other cells. If you're comparing the expulsion of mucous, or any other material that a body is designed to dispose of, with an autoimmune disease and the immune reaction, then you're completely ignoring the biology behind either one.

Also, if hypnosis were as incredibly successful in changing hormone levels as it is advertised to do, women with poly-cystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) would be using it much, MUCH more than they are currently, and currently, it seems as if virtually no one is.

The entire point of my arguments is that while you might argue that these things are possible, I argue that you're better off finding some other solution to your problems. According to quantum physics, if you lean against a wall and bump your shoulder into it over and over again, eventually you will move through the wall and end up on the other side. While hypnosis might have a slightly higher success rate, the fact remains that if you need to go outside, use the door.

[nuit09]

I don't want to prolong the argument. I merely pointed out that your contention about immune response being the sum total of tissue removal was false. i could provide other examples such as bone tissue.

But i digress. hypnosis has been shown to initiate tissue growth in peer reviewed journals. this is indisputable. That the genetic instructions to both add and remove tissue is encoded ito our genes is also indisputable. E.G; fetus evolving through a gilled amphibian stage but later losing the gills. note this process has little if anything to do with immune system functions.

Finally. i agree that within our current SOTA it is far more efficient to use other means rather than hypnosis for such things. I would however postulate that the right technique might yeild these seemingly fantastic or even impossible results.

as an analogy early humans exposed to a modern capenters tool box could not be expected to build a mansion. but a trained craftsman can. likewise, if in almost total ignorance of proper application of tools such as hypnosis, biofeedback, visualization, will and so on we cannot do something that while complicated is within the realm of possibility it does not mean that some trained prodigy cannot make use of those tools to perform the miraculous.


The tools build nothing by themselves. the skill of the artisan with the proper tools does.

I did not argue that it was simple. i did not argue that it was easy. i merely said it was within, and only just within, the realm of the possible.

And finally you and I agree. the average person is better off finding another means to do these things. That is just common sense. my purpose though is to ensure that those who want to Know and Do are not kept in ignorance of the possibilities by the skepticism and negativism of the mundane herd. No one ever did anything original or ingenious by following the herd. I will ensure that of all the voices they hear not all say no and forget about it. Conformnity is for cattle.

[Jack]

People act as if it were allopathic vs homeopathic medicine. I believe in a world where it is not take one and leave the other, but rather use both to the best of their abilities.

[nuit09]

indeed. if my ass were on fire i would not do an induction to put it out. but iwould still do inductions for other things. :lol:

[nuit09]

example of tissue removal without immune system activity: penis erectile tissue in transexuals on pre-op hormone dose levels. example two: muscle atrophy in former body builders. example three bone loss in low G environments. example 4 uterine lining. Example five; gill development/reabsorption in human fetus. these are examples i have thought of without researching the subject. I'm sure if i researched it i could find other multiple examples.

The contention that tissue is removed from the human body only by immune system attacks on tissue is ludicrous. particularly if it is intended to mean in the sense of auto-immune pathology like some forms of diabetes, arthritis, parkinsons, MS and so forth.

/Rant about academics on/

i have an associate degree in science of which biology was a mere 6 credits and i was able to cite multiple examples that contradict that premise. but then i challenged out (CLEP, DANTES, ACT/PEP and GRE general and GRE subject exams) for credit at the University of New York (Regeants)) of 104 credit hours in the degree fields of science, math, English Literature and American Literature, history, art, comparative religion and so forth. those 104 CR hours qualified me for four different associate degrees and place me within 16 CR hours of a BA in science with a concentration or major in physics. I have only 12 credit hours of actual college classroom attendence.

All of which means precisely nothing if i make a pronouncement that is clearly wrong. it does not make any mistaken statement i happen make any more true than someone with lesser credentialing that points out the fact that i am wrong about something. I could be the royal chair of the grand poobah of medical science, life, the universe and everything and still be fucked up as a football bat. wrong is wrong.

attendence at a college and academic credentialing therefrom are not by themselves an indication of the strength of a debate position or it's premises. To do so is a variation of a logical fallacy known as an appeal to authority. There are plenty of tenured professors in academia who were they in the real world would have to be commited to an institution for their delusional views and sociopathic tendancies. and they usually have enough degrees, accolades and awards to wallpaper a large building. The kookier and more out of touch with society and reality they are the more such "wallpaper" they tend to have.

Furthermore; credentialing is so much a institutionalized requirement to compete in the job market these days that the standards of tenure and standards of instruction and student achievement standards are laughably diluted. it is a credential factory for the student and a revenue source for the university. in todays culture, everybody, even the ditch diggers ideally should be forced to get a degree, that way the university gets thier money, industry gets to say thier staff has a degree and the ditch digger gets to hang a cute sheepskin on the wall. It's nearly meaningless a lot of the time.

There are exceptions; like doctors (with caveats about egotisitcal abuse of authority due to expert power making them prone to pulling pronouncements out of their asses) engineers, scientists and so on but there are a lot of people who get a degree simply because some bean counter, some functionary in a lot of companies decided thier building maintenance custodians ( janitors) all need degrees or some such nonsense.


Aaaaaaaaaargh! /Rant over/

[Lissar]

Once again, the shedding of the uterine lining is, in my opinion based on my knowledge of it, very different from the destruction of tissues to remove a penis. Have you ever shed your uterine lining?

If you're posting your credentials in response to me posting my background in biology, I would like to point out that I added my background in biology to show that I'm not just some random person who read a few articles and took a couple classes in high school. I plan on doing research in cancer and immunology. I'm actually genuinely interested in these things, and I have to take eight biology credits (one credit per semester) as well as two chemistry credits in order to fulfill the biology major requirements.

We aren't in agreement, so please don't go ahead and say we are. I stand by my reasoning that the body would have to mount an incredible autoimmune response to destroy a body part when the loss of that part is not natural in the course of a person's life, and the autoimmune response would have painful consequences since it would not distinguish between cells in one part of the body and cells in another. And I do have knowledge of autoimmune diseases, having researched them considerable in the past two years.

I'm not saying that we should abandon any sort of alternative remedies. What I am saying is that I don't think that some of the things that people on this site want, such as the loss of a male reproductive system and the addition of a female one, are quite ridiculous from a biological standpoint. I do not believe that these things are the same as menstruation by any means, and if you mention the shedding of the uterine lining one more time, I think I'll implode, metaphorically speaking.

[nuit09]

I think though that you have a mistaken idea about the autoimmune response being necessary for tissue reabsorbtion. Reabsorbtion is a better term than destruction forthe process as i envision it.) the parts of the penis, scrotum, and testicles as you know are also the parts of a female reproductive system. the tissue is just formed differently due to the influence of chemical messengers. so destruction is not necessary. just reabsorption such as occurs in the examples i cited ( such as the atrophy of penile tissue in heavy doses of female hormones in pre-op transexuals, which alone is very suggestive of the veracity of my premise ) and probably in many others i failed to mention. And such reabsorbtion is clearly a part of the genetic instruction set. and genes can be activated or thier products artificially introduced to the same effect. Which is of importance to my premise because the X chromosome instruction genes must subsequently either be activated or thier products introduced synthetically to construct a vagina, etc. further, there is the X factor; any process not understood by science involved in the human mind.

I argue that it is possible because the basic biological processes required are all present, and beyond that there is the great unknown of human extrordinary abilities. For my case it is not necessary for it to be common, or even to be proven to have happened in even one example but only possible. I have made a strong case that it is possible.

[CuriousG]

I think though that you have a mistaken idea about the autoimmune response being necessary for tissue reabsorbtion. Reabsorbtion is a better term than destruction forthe process as i envision it.) the parts of the penis, scrotum, and testicles as you know are also the parts of a female reproductive system. the tissue is just formed differently due to the influence of chemical messengers. so destruction is not necessary. just reabsorption such as occurs in the examples i cited ( such as the atrophy of penile tissue in heavy doses of female hormones in pre-op transexuals, which alone is very suggestive of the veracity of my premise ) and probably in many others i failed to mention. And such reabsorbtion is clearly a part of the genetic instruction set. and genes can be activated or thier products artificially introduced to the same effect. Which is of importance to my premise because the X chromosome instruction genes must subsequently either be activated or thier products introduced synthetically to construct a vagina, etc. further, there is the X factor; any process not understood by science involved in the human mind.

I argue that it is possible because the basic biological processes required are all present, and beyond that there is the great unknown of human extrordinary abilities. For my case it is not necessary for it to be common, or even to be proven to have happened in even one example but only possible. I have made a strong case that it is possible.

You're really out on a limb here, Nuit. The body really isn't meant to do certain things, and won't have the capacity for them period. For instance, you can't turn your urine into ambrosia, you'll never grow poisonous fangs, nor change your eye color from brown to "rainbow".

While you can argue that the mechanisms to do so could conceivably exist in your body (it's all about DNA, after all), they really don't. They were discarded when you exited the womb. Also, it's fallacious to claim that anything achievable artificially is achievable naturally. You're not going to spontaneously disinfect a wound, re-absorb a detached leg, or grow a titanium hip, for instance.

Hypnosis has its uses, as well as things it just can't do.

[nuit09]

You're really out on a limb here, Nuit. The body really isn't meant to do certain things, and won't have the capacity for them period. For instance, you can't turn your urine into ambrosia, you'll never grow poisonous fangs, nor change your eye color from brown to "rainbow".

While you can argue that the mechanisms to do so could conceivably exist in your body (it's all about DNA, after all), they really don't. They were discarded when you exited the womb. Also, it's fallacious to claim that anything achievable artificially is achievable naturally. You're not going to spontaneously disinfect a wound, re-absorb a detached leg, or grow a titanium hip, for instance.

But you could grow poisonous fangs. if you manufacutured the DNA for it and placed it in a retrovirus. and then injected it in a test subject the DNA upon being activated would produce poisous fangs. alternatively you could use nano machines ( even now becoming complex enough to do so)to deliver the DNA or thier proteins.

We discarded nothing upon leaving the womb. The DNA is still there. the genes that do are merely turned off. they were not snipped out and discarded with the after birth. Genes can be reactivated. it is now pretty routine to do so in the lab.

Finally if by artificial you mean carefully controlling a genetic sequence of active and inactivating genes at the proper timing to cause a natural process to happen when it would ordinarilly not do so such as outside the womb then i must disagree. if the mechanism exist within the body that bodies master can use that mechanism. but the other artificial things you mention are outside the domain of my claim as i never said we could do or could not do those things.

[nuit09]

Disinfect a wound? biologically possible. reabsorb a leg? somewhat biologically possible. Grow a titanium hip? not biologically possible with our genetic code. occurs en demonstradato in some organisms and plants. for a human to do so would require either internally manufacturing new DNA or a supreme act of Magick and a pile of bioavailable titanium. :wink:

[Reknaw133]

I've never tried any of these so I can't give sure answers but I am sure it's psyically not possible to switch gender via hipno-soundwaves male and female differ in the genital area also they contain different organs (worm, etc) it's psyically not possible to switch even with surgury.

People who belive this are freaks, please someone send me the file (I am willing to bet my 'manhood' on it - I really am)

[nuit09]

I've never tried any of these so I can't give sure answers but I am sure it's psyically not possible to switch gender via hipno-soundwaves male and female differ in the genital area also they contain different organs (worm, etc) it's psyically not possible to switch even with surgury.

People who belive this are freaks, please someone send me the file (I am willing to bet my 'manhood' on it - I really am)

Many fish switch gender in life. with a little research i can find the exact species. but for now let me just say that when there are no males female fish of several species will change sex in order to continue their genetic line through progeny. There is a lizard in the southern united states that has no males. females copulate and this intitiates parthenogenic fission of thier eggs.

You are wrong about human genital tissue. the base animal form is female. the Y chromosome instruction commanders the process and transforms the *same* tissues that would otherwise form a vagina, uterus, cervix, ovaries and fallopian tubes into the male organs and plumbing. This is not common sense type knowledge where you can make a pronouncement based on appearances alone. Just because male and female reproductive organs look different and are arranged differently does not mean they are not the same tissue or that they have the same baseline schematics. I suggest you study embryology instead of relying on what you think to be "common" knowledge.

[Jack]

nuit: Avoid personal attacks like this to be more credible.

reknaw: Birchwood is correct. Also, remember that just because something is too complicated at this moment in time doesn't mean that we'll never be able to achieve it. At one point doing any work on the heart that didn't result in death was considered impossible. Now we transplant them. Jolt them out of arrhythmia. Reanimate the deceased(albeit we only have a few minutes in which to do this). Currently we are working on the cloning and surgical installation of whole organs. Even one step further: growing new organs in humans!

birchwood: Remember also that it used to be thought that if a human being exceeded 35mphs they would suffocate. Vaccinations were thought to be vile works of the devil, and against the hippocratic oath. Man would never leave the ground, let alone break the sound barrier or leave the atmosphere. Every innovation has it's detractors, and in a way they are correct: at that time the technology is too new to be as effective as whatever is currently in place. However, given a little time and energy, anything is possible.

CuriousG: Way to hyperbolize. Your body grew from a single cell. When you get a cut, you body heals itself. What's weird is that it knows when to stop.. You don't end up with a twin. The mechanism(s) for regeneration are in every cell of your body. What you're talking about are the limits of our current conscious knowledge and ability. Did you know that Egyptians had "healing temples"? You go in, lay down for a period of time(anywhere from 30 minutes to a few days), the priest(s) recite a spell, and you walk out cured of your ailments. They did this for colds, VDs, cuts, and broken bones(mind you: they set the bone first). We live in(as far as anyone can tell) an infinite universe in which there is room for everything. It is no more unlikely to change the genitalia of a human being than it is for a woman to lift a car off of her child. All the required parts are there already. One need only apply a sufficiently developed technology.

Lissar: You are correct about the uterine lining. The uterus is specifically designed to perform this function. Basically, nuit is correct though. Who says you have to destroy tissue in order to change gender? You're looking at genitalia as a single finite unit, and not as a collection of smaller units which can be reorganized to perform a similar function. No destruction, no autoimmune response. Also, every second of your life your unconscious is constantly controlling and altering your heart rate, the rate at which you breathe, the levels of your hormones, your perspiration, and a million other little things like processing the billions of bits of information it receives every second from your eyes, ears, nose, skin, and tongue into a form which your conscious mind will recognize and be able to utilize. No one knows the potential of human beings.

I am open to PMs, as well as responses in the forums.

[Lissar]

I should have remembered this earlier, but our unit in developmental biology (AKA the coolest thing ever) was a while ago, and so it hasn't been at the front of my mind recently. Our cells, for the most part, no longer have the ability to become another type of tissue. Our DNA determines their development incredibly early on; at this point, you can't change very much in the human body by messing with DNA. You can try to change the interpretation by introducing proteins or chemicals that would turn on or off a certain switch in all the cells in the body. But we really don't have that sort of control over DNA, not even with our minds. I do not believe that hypnosis can make enough significant changes to the mind in order to create that sort of change. I really don't, and nothing anyone says is going to change my mind on this. You can't grow poisonous fangs, and we certainly aren't going to mess around with retroviruses for something as unnecessary as that. Your teeth are no longer controlled by your DNA; they have already developed their shapes.

The effects of hormones is completely different from the effects of hypnosis because hormones are chemical changes for your body. I am very skeptical about how much influence hypnosis would have on the body's production of hormones. From research I did recently, hypnosis is not being used as an alternative remedy for PCOS, and if it really worked to change hormone levels, it would be used extensively to treat PCOS, which already uses hormones as treatment.

[nuit09]

differentiation such as found in adult stem cells which are found in every tissue in the body is not the question though it could help. for example there are attempts to make stem cells become a third set of teeth in adults that have lost theirs and there are anecdotal reports of people actually doing this by will alone that have been noted here. There are three families of cells in the body that get thier start all the way back when the body was a hollow sphere of nearly undiferentiated cells. second generation stem cells are from these cell families and are still present in mature bodies. Third generation stem cells are further differentiated and further limited in potential to form other tissues. however even these later generation stem cells can form limited other types of tissues as has been proven in the lab. For example stem cells from the testes have been coaxed into becoming eggs in the lab. I can find the peer reviewed research on that if you like a cite on it.

Be that as it may since the male sexual anatomy is really made of the same types of cells as the female sexual organs the type of differentiation you seem to imply is not needed for the type of anatomical transformation we have been talking about. The glans cells are the same as clitoral cells. The scrotal cells are the same as the cells in a woman's labia. the material in the copus cavernosa is also in certain parts of the femle anatomy, the uretheral tissue is also the cells in the vagina and cervix and uterus. the cells in the testicles are largely the same as the cells in the ovaries. They are the same cells just in different locations and numbers. No stem cell like changeability is needed with perhaps an exception in the folicular cells in the ovaries. that one i am uncertain of. but if you acknoledge the co-identity of these cells then your argument of the necessity of what amounts to cellular mutation is plainly incorrect.


As to hormone control by psychological mechanisms this is well documented as i listed elsewhere in this thread and therre is no need to list them again.

The idea that because a study says this is so doctors would elect to use it as therapy is not well thought out. why would they rely on the patient when they cannot even rely on the patient to make the effort to finish a course of antibiotics? What doctor in his right mind would rely on the patient practicing intense meditations for hours a day every day for months at a time rather than give him a pill or a shot? Number one; so few people would be steadfast enough to cure themselves this way that statistically the treatment would be a dismall failure even if it were ironclad that the therapy would otherwise work. I hope they have stellar malpractice insurance...


Number 2: Also you bring this up elsewhere; medicine is a business and there is not profit in this. if a doctor could choose between telling you to eat grass or this expensive little pill ( given both do the same thing) he's going to perscribe the expensive little pill. not considering for the moment the monumental difficulty of following a meditative type cure to a successful conclusion.

Again; you cannot confuse a processes dismal efficiency with proving the null hypothesis. dismal efficiency implies that work is done just done at an unacceptable rate. it does not imply that the process does not work.

[CuriousG]

Nuit, anything can happen. Statistically, there's a chance that within the next moment I will spontaneously sprout a second head (due to quantum mechanics), and you could argue that simply waiting is merely an example of a "dismally ineffecient" way to get a second head.

You cannot, with any real success, direct yourself to grow gills (or a vagina) through hypnosis. Even if the elements for doing so exist within the body, it is beyond the ability of your conscious mind to direct.

To give another example, you can't crunch large numbers quickly in your head the way a computer can. Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator. No matter how much time and effort you spend trying to make it otherwise, those limits will still exist. Consciously fiddling with DNA has the same sort of difficulty attached to it.

Given this, the files that say you can grow a vagina are complete bunk.

[nuit09]

Nuit, anything can happen. Statistically, there's a chance that within the next moment I will spontaneously sprout a second head (due to quantum mechanics), and you could argue that simply waiting is merely an example of a "dismally ineffecient" way to get a second head.

You cannot, with any real success, direct yourself to grow gills (or a vagina) through hypnosis. Even if the elements for doing so exist within the body, it is beyond the ability of your conscious mind to direct.

To give another example, you can't crunch large numbers quickly in your head the way a computer can. Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator. No matter how much time and effort you spend trying to make it otherwise, those limits will still exist. Consciously fiddling with DNA has the same sort of difficulty attached to it.

Given this, the files that say you can grow a vagina are complete bunk.

We don't know any of that for sure and there exist anecdotal evidence that on occasion people can do things like this. many have been cited here. The person who consciously decided to grow a third set of teeth, there is a report of a man (?) who changed sex on his own with no surgery. the story ran in newspapers ( no not the weekly world news) and included testimony of doctors and the man's original birth records. There exist humans who are very very good at calculating complex equations at super high speed. all these things are possible but so extremely rare as to be worth mentioning only to say it is just within the bounds of reality. And while it may be true that thousands of people could try to use these files to do those things and fail. there might, just might be a soul who does presevere with enough will force and subconscious gifts to do it. there will be a few more who manage some breast growth, or some penis growth or some other incremental success with these files.
I am not arguing that the average person would not be better off with drug or surgery remedies. I merely object to those who categorically deny the possibility of it happening at all. I hate that.

[goldragon_70]

I should have remembered this earlier, but our unit in developmental biology (AKA the coolest thing ever) was a while ago, and so it hasn't been at the front of my mind recently. Our cells, for the most part, no longer have the ability to become another type of tissue. Our DNA determines their development incredibly early on; at this point, you can't change very much in the human body by messing with DNA. You can try to change the interpretation by introducing proteins or chemicals that would turn on or off a certain switch in all the cells in the body. But we really don't have that sort of control over DNA, not even with our minds. I do not believe that hypnosis can make enough significant changes to the mind in order to create that sort of change. I really don't, and nothing anyone says is going to change my mind on this. You can't grow poisonous fangs, and we certainly aren't going to mess around with retroviruses for something as unnecessary as that. Your teeth are no longer controlled by your DNA; they have already developed their shapes.

The effects of hormones is completely different from the effects of hypnosis because hormones are chemical changes for your body. I am very skeptical about how much influence hypnosis would have on the body's production of hormones. From research I did recently, hypnosis is not being used as an alternative remedy for PCOS, and if it really worked to change hormone levels, it would be used extensively to treat PCOS, which already uses hormones as treatment.

When some people have the tooth pulled, another one tries to grow back (usually not right, but it still grows), so with that in mind, there is a good possibility that with enough hormonal change, the body could grow fully formed new teeth. Since the brain releases all the chemicals need to produce the rest, as long as the mind changes the hormones, changes will happen. The only real limitation is time, and your mind.

[Lissar]

Oy, people. Here we go.

You cannot voluntarily control the amount of hormones you produce. You really can't, especially the amount of sex hormones. I am very serious when I say that women with PCOS would be using hypnosis a lot more if it could lower testosterone that significantly.

Yes, the body produces cortisol when you get stressed out. And if you were hypnotised into believing you were stressed out, you would respond accordingly. You would also produce more adrenaline if you were hypnotised into believing that you were being pursued by a bear (five points for knowing that literary reference). But you cannot tell your body to produce more cortisol or produce more adrenaline.

Does anyone know how EMG's file creates an erection? I'm curious as to his wording to see if it conforms to how the sympathetic nervous system works.

[Jack]

Lissar, you keep making all of these assertions without much(or any in some cases) evidence.

"You cannot voluntarily control the amount of hormones you produce" is an assertion. You keep trying to use the same tool(hypnosis) on us, that we use to change others. And, for the most part, I agree with you. I would only add two words to what you said: normally, and consciously. Normally, the vast majority of people cannot consciously(with volition) control the amount of hormones that their body produces.

What tells your body to produce those hormones? Or do you believe that they're just automatically produced without any controls? They just keep producing, and producing, and producing. If this were the case, we would all be dead! As a biology student you should know that the heart keeps beating because of impulses sent from the brain through the nervous system to the heart. Your brain monitors and controls all of your systems. It's in a constant feedback loop with your entire body. Your conscious mind is a function of your brain. Unless you believe in a soul.. In which case, your soul and your body are in another loop.

Under normal circumstances... you know what... nevermind. Ignore everything I and all of the other people here have said, and just go about your business. Just don't try to install unneccessary limits in other people. If you want to live your life with your head up the educational systems ass where you can't see anything: Go for it. It's your life, do with it what you will.

[CuriousG]

Well, Nuit, I can understand (though I don't necessarily agree with) your assertion that hypnosis can do some of these more incredible things. However, my core point is solely this:

The extremely outlandish-sounding files, which is anything much more extreme than growing breasts, simply aren't worth listening to.

There are many processes in your body that you can go through life without ever consciously controlling. A couple simple examples are wiggling your ears and whistling. Even these simple things are impossible for many people. Controlling your hormones by hypnosis is a HUGE step beyond that (perhaps to the point of impossibility for the vast majority of people), and you certainly can't just repeat to yourself the mantra: I want more estrogen, just as you can't say to yourself: I want to whistle, and expect results. IF there is a way to do the most outlandish things described in these files, it certainly doesn't seem to be a way that EMG knows.

[nuit09]

That is possibly true. but that has never been my argument. my argument along your last line of thought is that you should never tell people who come here searching for a way to do the "outlandish" that they cannot do it. "period. end of discussion." that's just plain wrong and somewhat pompous and overbearing. It's certainly counterproductive to thier quest.

[VeryGnawty]

Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator.

This man would disagree.

[CuriousG]

Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator.

This man would disagree.

Nice, but proves no point.

There are some people essentially born with the ability to do mental math pretty well, and they can polish those skills, but there's a reason why NASA needed digital computers to start launching stuff into orbit.

Anyway, I think telling people what they can't do is reasonable, as long as you're just being realistic and not putting them down.

[nuit09]

No i see it as pushing conformnity based not on the factual bounds of reality but on statistical norms; crushing ambitions, and destroying any chance at pushing the bounds the possible for someone else because your drive has already been destroyed. It is a sad petty evil thing to perpetrate on someone trying to do something extraordinary If they fail let them do so on thier own limitations and merits and not your own beliefs and limitations.

[goldragon_70]

Even though your brain has more processing power than any digital CPU on the market, it still can't match even a pocket calculator.

This man would disagree.

Nice, but proves no point.

There are some people essentially born with the ability to do mental math pretty well, and they can polish those skills, but there's a reason why NASA needed digital computers to start launching stuff into orbit.

Right, they are unable to hook a human brain directly, so there is a slower reaction to sensors, so a computer is connected directly. They do most of the calculations, with and without a computer.

[Lissar]

Lissar, you keep making all of these assertions without much(or any in some cases) evidence.

"You cannot voluntarily control the amount of hormones you produce" is an assertion. You keep trying to use the same tool(hypnosis) on us, that we use to change others. And, for the most part, I agree with you. I would only add two words to what you said: normally, and consciously. Normally, the vast majority of people cannot consciously(with volition) control the amount of hormones that their body produces.

What tells your body to produce those hormones? Or do you believe that they're just automatically produced without any controls? They just keep producing, and producing, and producing. If this were the case, we would all be dead! As a biology student you should know that the heart keeps beating because of impulses sent from the brain through the nervous system to the heart. Your brain monitors and controls all of your systems. It's in a constant feedback loop with your entire body. Your conscious mind is a function of your brain. Unless you believe in a soul.. In which case, your soul and your body are in another loop.

Under normal circumstances... you know what... nevermind. Ignore everything I and all of the other people here have said, and just go about your business. Just don't try to install unneccessary limits in other people. If you want to live your life with your head up the educational systems ass where you can't see anything: Go for it. It's your life, do with it what you will.

Actually, the heart beats because of heart cells called pacemaker cells. That's why the heart will keep beating outside of the body. The impulse travels from the pacemaker cells through the conducting cells, where it ends up at the heart muscle cells. Source: Thursday's biology lecture.

And you can't voluntarily control hormone production. Look up the autonomic nervous system and tell me that you can control all of your hormones. This system controls hormone production, not your consciousness, and not your subconsciouss.

Please refrain from making ad hominem attacks. You don't need to insult me or my interests. It's one thing to disagree with me, but it's another entirely to attack my person.

In response to crushing people's ambitions, are these really people's ambitions? Fetishes, desires, interests maybe, but ambitions? If your ambition is to grow breasts, fine, whatever. But saying that it's not possible through hypnosis isn't crushing the ambition.

[Hyp-know-fetish]

I have experienced a couple of minor physical changes through hypnosis.

[Jack]

Lissar: Please refer to the post directly above this one.

[CuriousG]

Well, at least it's a good thing that WMM doesn't charge for MOST of the files.

[CuriousG]

Could a person read / process 25,000 words per minute?

http://www.learningstrategies.com/PhotoReading/Home.asp

Yes, we've all heard of speed-reading (which this claims to be distinct from, but really doesn't seem to be). Your point?

Besides, it charges $530 for a seminar. How could I possible trust a site that does so to be free of bias? Even if their course is somewhat effective, I'm willing to bet that much of their testimonials and statistics are inflated.

I'd like to address what Nuit said, about how I'm "crushing ambitions". Well, what about preventing expenditure of time and money on fantasy. Would I be crushing dreams if I claimed "buying lottery tickets is a waste of money"?

[Lissar]

I think it's silly that people are asking me to "open my mind." It seems ridiculous that people are telling me to read some articles and agree with them when they refuse to learn about the capacities of the human body to see where I'm coming from.

[Chrisjl]

I agree with completely with Lissar concerning using hypnosis to induce a sex change. It simply isn't possible as there is no mechanism available to the body to "shed" sexual organs and then grow new ones. Also while it is true that the body is female as a baseline and all we men do indeed have the requisite information to be female within us it doesn't make a blind bit of difference once the body has developed.
Let me use an analogy to make it clear. Think of DNA as the blueprints for a house, the house is the body. When the house is being built (the body is developing) then the blueprints are followed. However once you have built the house it doesn't matter if you change the blueprints because the house has already been built! This is a slightly simplistic view as the "blueprints" are constantly consulted to maintain the "house" but the house never gets rebuilt. Think about it, if hypnosis had the ability to generate completely new organs and tissue then it would be used to treat amputees.
Oh and for the record the body can (selectively) destroy itself quite safely, the process is called apoptosis and is essential for a number of things including the development of the fingers I'm using to type this.

Incidentally I hold a degree in genetics and a higher degree in biomedical sciences so you can take my words as truth.

As for the placebo issue, even if hyponsis is 'only' a placebo, so what? Placebo effects can have amazing and dramatic effects without the need for any external input (e.g. drugs). Surely this is a better approach than utilising external methods which could well have other, undesireable, side effects?

[Chrisjl]

Mmmm, that last post went to the wrong thread......
Sorry for any confusion.

[Lissar]

From what I've learned, apoptosis is cell death more than, like, organ death. It'd be nice to have some examples of mass apoptosis. But yay, degree in genetics. I'm looking for a degree in biology, but next semester, I'm taking general genetics. It should be exciting material, even if we don't have the most engaging professor.

Thanks for your metaphor of the house and blueprint! I hate when I understand something, but am unable to explain it to others, but you really hit it.

Birchwood, I don't think we were in agreement, mostly since we were arguing completely different points. And thank for you for the "assume= ass u me," which not only reminded me of middle school, but also made me remember that I'm one of the only people on the internet who tries to use proper spelling and grammar (I am not speaking about you or anyone in particular with these comments. I am speaking in general).

[OMGWTFBBQ]

But Lissar isn't disagreeing with the potential of the human mind to entirely believe that they have a vagina, are you?

[Lissar]

I'm not arguing against that. I've been talking about the physical limitations of the body the whole time.

[Blink]

I'm not arguing against that. I've been talking about the physical limitations of the body the whole time.

I've been reading along as this thread has developed and I have a few niggling thoughts.

First, the "scientific" examination of hypnosis is a bit of a farce. I say this from the perspective of someone who is totally pro-hypno and very much pro-research. I'm a soft-science practitioner, so you lab-rats will have to bear with me. My understanding is that there is yet no solid definition of what, precisely, hypnosis is. There are myriad theories reaching from Freud's cosmology of the mind to the predominance of certain waveforms on an EEG, but there is no unity among researchers of which I'm aware for what we're looking at when we see trance. Are we looking at a brain state, a set of behaviors or a manifestation of Axis II traits? Much like astronomy, we know there is something there, but we don't know what. We quickly find ourselves defining hypnosis not by whatever it actually is, but by the observable effects it has. That's good enough for the art of medicine, but you're going to find it falls short of satisfying the science of biology.

Second, much of the research into hypnosis has consisted either of presentations of case histories, documentation of clinical observations, or studies designed along the lines of pharmaceutical research projects--a design singularly unsuited to hypnosis, for which there is no placebo. Since we are working in the realm of belief and suggestion, how do you design an effective control? Ambiguity and implication are often enough to get hypnosis-like results without ever requiring a formal induction. How do you design that out in a human-subjects investigation?

Third, in spite of the fact that we don't know exactly what we're using nor do we have any way way of metering dosage nor understand the first iota of the mechanism of action, when we do diligent research and eliminate as many of the uncontrolled variables as we can, we usually do see something there. Among the things that we have seen have been things that do not fall within the realm of biological or biopsychiatric reason. I return to my favorite: the Harvard bone regrowth study. I admit that I haven't read more than the brief accounts available via the Internet, but what was presented there was plenty for me.

I'll admit that the kind of gross physical changes that are being described here seem a little far-fetched to me, too, but I am extremely slow to rule any possiblity out, no matter how slim the chance might be. Should some post-doc student doing PET scans manage to paint a target on trance and make it a measurable thing, there is no telling what might come next. Hypnosis might not be the panacea that it's proclaimed to be by some, but it might become a much more effective adjucnt. Even minimal control over apoptotic activity would be a really, really big deal for cancer patients, even if you couldn't dissolve your own appendix by listening to a CD twice a day for a week.

From my perspective, the issue of what is or is not possible is mainly a matter of belief. From my clinical viewpoint, the next questions then are whether your beliefs are presenting you with more or fewer choices and whether your beliefs are making your life more or less enjoyable. Anyone know the biological mechanism for changing one's mind? I recognize that when start poking around with the CBT core belief stuff with folks who are entrenched in a position, that I run the risk of seeming patronizing or dismissive. I want to be sure that no such tone remains in this post.

In any case, I'm continuing to give the boy wracking multiple orgasms centered in hallucinated female organs. He describes the experience as real, and I've seen the physiological concommitants and they tend to back his story. That's all I need.

-- Blink

Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily.
Life is but a dream.

[goldragon_70]

My 2 cents and I'm not directly attacking anyone....yet anyways.

Studies do not always take into consideration, the few rare people. Most of the time they take averages.

Some of the dreamers on this site might actually get some of the more unrealistic files to work with major results. I'm not saying that one's going to really turn themselves into a house cat, but the probability does exists that major body change can happen.

Trying to discourage someone from there dream, like trying to discourage some one from playing the lottery, for the most part is not going to work. In general, we (human beings) like to dream, some more then others. Some of those that dream more then others, make those dreams come true too.

Science is just an organized version of observation, which is then conclusions from that are put into theory, and theory just that conclusion not been disproved....yet. Theories are being created and disproved quite often.

Besides, this site is somewhat majority driven, so if there is enough that believe in it, it just might make it as a file on the site.