Question

[Dammi]

With complete respect to you EMG and all of you people. But does somebody here really believe that telepathy is real and can be achieved with hypnotizm?

Here is what I saw in the voting list for Self Help

train telepathy become telepathic read minds communicate with other using the power of thought. replacement for the file that was in first place when this site went down

And what amazed me was that it was on the top of the list! Seriously.. I may believe in many crazy things.. but that's something I think is quite impossible.

Why not vote for something like Speed Learning and stuff like that. Cause I believe the brain can be "helped" towards something.. help you take in alot more information and stuff like that. But to change it so it can read peoples minds? If somebody has listened to a file like this and it actually worked... well.. congratulations.. now go to NBC and get a talk show if it's that real. I think if somebody listened to a file like that.. they would maybe believe they could read peoples minds.. but the things they would "hear" was just their imagination.

[makidas]

if you would like to learn some techniques for learning telepathy, check out this site
cystalink.com
also i would reccomend the psychic development studio(shareware) on downloads.com

[Linja]

I'm with you Dammi, no offence Makidas.
I used to believe in psychic abilities myself, and actually have lots of books on the subject. But, having very limited success and realising that there was quite little feasible evidence for such beliefs, I gave it up.
I still study it every now and then, but it's frustrating that nearly all the scientific tests for people who were believed to be telepathic (twins ect) have come back showing no more ability than pure chance, or that the subjects were cheating.
I just figure, if these things are possible, wouldn't there be at least one person in the world who is good enough at it to actually be able to scientifically prove it's viability? Wouldn't there be at least one person, in the entire world, who is good enough to make a shit load of money out of it and prove that it's not a hoax?

There are examples of people who claim to possess such skills, but suprise suprise, most of these are showmen in shows like "Crossing Over".
These people have been put under much scrutiny, as there is belief that they study up beforehand on members of the audience and then finish the show with a technique called "cold reading". This in itself is quite the phenomenon, in which people can make very accurate guesses as to what a person is thinking based on a process of elimination and also through gauging the subject's reactions to certain questions, phrases.

In the past, performers such a gypsies would've used this skill very well, and due to the lack of scientific explanation during those times, many would've come to the conclusion of some supernatural ability, ie telepathy.

This is what I believe, I may be wrong though and I am open to changing my mind. I look forward to hearing your response.

-Linja

[loadedkaos]

I am not shut off to the psychic world... I just think that it is more likely that the so called psychics out there are doing cold reading wether it is conciously or subconciously. I think we ought to have a file not about telepathy but on people reading which would cover body language, voice pitch, reading someone based on their clothes etc...

[makidas]

well, i can see your points, however, psychic abilitys are a god given tool if you know how to use them. with practice you would be surprised at how acurste you can become. some other good learning techniques can be found in konstantinos's book "nocturnal witchcratf" he has the best lessons ive seen anywhere, and they do work. :D :D

[loadedkaos]

I don't want people to think that I'm a complete skeptic I have witnessed what I believe is psychic phenomina. But nothing completely convincing even though I would like to see a file based on mundane people reading because I beleive it will be more effective than the telepathy file I would still like to experiment with the telepathy file or any other file that promotes genuine psychic ability. I guess I'm just a skeptic with an open mind.

[Linja]

Makidas, I'm still open to psychic abilities and such, but my mind is completely closed to witchcraft. So the chances of me looking into "Nocturnal Witchcraft" are doubtful. Don't think that I'm just blatantly writting it off either, because again, I've actually studied it, and again, have many books on this sorta thing (went through a phase). Also, I live right next to a sorta township which is borderline country, and this place is wierd because it's big on witchcraft, and that's probably where I got the idea from.

Anyways, I don't believe in witchcraft at all, there is not even the slightest of believeable reasons for it to work, even in theory. At least some of the theories on psychic abilities can actually make sense, I can't find that with witchcraft. All theories that I've heard that would make witchcraft acceptable to me, also mean that it's unnecessary to go through the process of witchcraft as the same could be achieved through meditation ect (I'm talking about theories that the process opens up your mind and your desires go up to the cosmos where the cosmic powers hear it and act upon the physical world to make it happen or some shit like that...).

Regardless of this, I still have an openish mind to it, and if you can change it, then congratulations, cos I'm pretty stubborn on these things, and you'd probably be the first.

Also, if psychic abilities get better with practise, then again, wouldn't there be somebody in the world who is an expert at it and able to prove it's existence scientifically? Or at least beat what is already a probable average in the ESP card tests?

On a different note, have you had a personal experience that has led you to believe in it's existence? If so, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

Thanks man.

-Linja

[makidas]

with all do repects, regardless of whether you believe in witchcraft or not, there are some fantastic lessons in that book for learning esp. :D

[Linja]

Alright, because I'm interested in ESP, I'll give it a look. You seem to know a lot about all of this kinda thing, are you able to do any of it yourself? Or at any stage have you have an experience with it?

-Linja

[makidas]

i have about a years experience practicing esp with approximately %85 accuracy. The book is awesome, i would reccomend just go to a bookstore and skim to the divining section.

[Linja]

Wow, shit that's impressive.

This is gunna sound stupid cos I live in Australia, but can you tell me what colour my room is? Or what colour my eyes are?
These are kinda hard, but when you say things like that I can't help but try to test it. If you get it wrong then I'll understand because it may've been a while since you've done it or something.

-Linja

[makidas]

i'm not really at that stage in development, its more what number 1-10 or what color, r g b y, the ability to pick thoughts out of someones head only comes with years upon years of practice, not to mention, damn dude i've never tried it online :) :)

[xanthk]

blue room? brown eyes? Watching now, or watching when you posted?

[Jordan33]

I am a believer in ESP but not in the way it normally is talked about. i don't believe that someone can just know any number a person is thinking of, but i do believe that the human mind can pick up some emotions and certain ideas but most people don't even notice it, like when two people say the same ramdom thing at a time. The human mind evolves every generation and eventually generations down the road this ability may be much more advanced and obvious.

[Cubeguru]

i believe in it, but mostly, stage ESP's usually just pick up on signs, subliminally projected from the human body.

[drydreamer]

Hello everyone. I'm new here, but I've been interested in psychic energy for many years, and once took a psychic development class. I still don't call myself a psychic though, because I have too many doubts about my own abilities. And therein lies the problem with using psychic energy (sometimes known as ESP.) You basically talk yourself out of it. You have too many doubts. But I still believe that anyone is capable of harnessing this energy if they can focus properly and eliminate their self doubt. And I also believe that hypnosis can help people eliminate their doubts about their own abilities. But on the other hand, I'm sure that we are all subject to the SAME REALITIES whether we like it or not. In this PHYSICAL REALITY we normally live with, there are limitations on what a human being can actually do. I believe that there is also a SPIRITUAL REALITY which transcends the physical limitations, but which is quite impossible to prove with physical science (because it's not physical.) I think this is why all the attempts by scientists to prove ESP have basically failed. They are trying to deal with one reality while they are still in the other one. And yet, we will all live in both physical and spiritual forms at different times in our lives (reincarnation.) My point here is that I don't believe any hypnosis induction could give someone the ability to invade someone else's mind because that is not possible in this physical reality. I also have my doubts that a person's body can actually be altered through hypnosis, but I'm hoping the penis enlargment induction will work for me! LOL drydreamer

[Agriff]

Yeah there are some reports of it working, thats a definate yes in the category of "Can this shit actually happen on some people?"

[Max]

"Reports" are notoriously lousy as evidence of anything.

People claim all sorts of things. For various reasons.

Look at the current furor over gas prices. In adjusted dollars gasoline is actually cheaper than it was 20 years ago. Yet people are talking about it as though there is some sort of crisis.

[Agriff]

"I also have my doubts that a person's body can actually be altered through hypnosis, but I'm hoping the penis enlargment induction will work for me! LOL drydreamer"

I was talking about that part of his post, not the part about ESP. Sorry if there was any confusion. I for one do not believe in telepathic abilities, or ESP for the matter. I suppose you are right though max, the people saying that their penis grew may in fact be lying about it.

[Jack]

Or they may be telling the truth..
Or they might perceive their penis as being larger, and it actually is..
Or they might perceive their penis as being larger, and it actually is the same size it was..
Or they might perceive their penis as being larger, and it's actually smaller..

Or...

[b-poe-01]

Hey folks,

First off....no offense to the skeptics here, but you could do a Google search, using the terms "remote viewing" and "Stanford Research Institute" (or its initials, SRI) and look up the material so far released by the CIA (only 10% of the total) that the Agency gathered concerning the testing, cultivating, and uses of a *well-trained* sort of ESP. :)

Basically, it all got started with regards to the possibilty that human observation of quantum level phenomenom (basically electrons, but also it involved a very sensitive gravity measuring device) could skew the results of a study at *any* distance, due to entanglement issues (long story short, at the level of subatomic particles, including electrons or electricity, which is what computers *and to some extent human brains* run on, it can be set up so that you can *link* two particles together in such a way that changing *one* causes the other to *instantly* update itself according to the changes--regardless of distance or barriers).

And that was roughly back in the late 1970s? I am not too clear on the start and end dates, but I do know that the CIA and the Research Institute *did* in fact study this sort of thing for a *decade*, spend millions of taxpayer dollars, and has recently declassified some of their info. Now....if ESP type phenomena were *all a hoax* and the CIA spent all that time and money for *nothing*, do you really think they'd *ever* admit to it?? Of course not... ;)

Granted, they've only released 10% of the info so far, but what has been released so far indicates that if you have people *properly trained in an organized protocol* and set them up in teams working together, you can make ESP type stuff work with a success rate in the low 90% range. In fact, the evidence released *so far* has been so overwhelmingly positive that in order to get a *failure* the CIA had to break its own protocol with Uri Geller and *rig* the test so he'd *fail*.

In short what the CIA and SRI have found so far is:

--it is possible to remote view or remote sense events if you know *where* they are and *roughly* what to look at (a city, a building, a car, etc.) This can be done via meditation or by using biofeedback or hypnotic trances to induce the proper mental state.

--it is possible to *entangle* one person's thoughts somewhat with another's, to the point that one person can *send* thoughts to a designated reciever. Word has it that this technique was used to *harrass* Saddam Hussein until he was found.

--it is possible to use telekinesis, provided you have a way to measure quantum-level stuff on a macroscopic level. In other words, a mind *can* alter the flow of electricity enough to tweak the performance of a computer program. And I myself have projected my own will strongly enough to make the light bulbs in my apartment *flicker*.

So to the extent that thoughts in a brain are electrical (and can be measured in terms of electro-magnetic activity on an MRI or CT scan), I'd strongly believe that telepathy can exist, and that it almost *has* to if you apply quantum physics *at all* to biological systems like neurons. :D

Of course, you don't always have to *use* the CIA's protocol to produce results...sometimes conventional hypnosis can do the trick, provided it gets both trancer and 'tist on the same sort of mental wavelength.

This is where the Jungian principle of *synchronicity* comes in....basically it is a Jungian psychologists' way of discussing ESPer stuff without the *baggage* that comes with the more popular (and halfway discredited) terms. Essentially what it means is that someone's mind becomes *congruent with* something, usually either another mind or a particular situation or both...

For instance, I've been working with one of my lady dolls online for nearly a year now, on and off. We know each other, in and out of trance at her end, and I know what to expect in terms of her *dolly* state of mind. And yes, some nights we are in synch in the sense that I can hear her voice as she types in IM, see her face and posture, get the color of her lingerie, and finish her sentences if I choose to. ;)

You could say, well duh, you know her, you hear it through your computer (which has neither a sound card nor speakers), and you know the context well enough to make educated guesses. Which is all true, except for the color of her lingerie, posture, speech patterns (an urban Texas accent, filtered through a blonde--higher pitched that is--but *rather smart* voice), and what she's going to say *out of trance*. ;)

Point is....I think ESP is possible because it's been a routine part of my life (not to mention a necessity for survival sometimes) since childhood, my older sis had more ESPer ability than I did, and to some extent it is still an *everyday* part of my life. That is the key I think, aside from making it a discipline of some sort, you also have to accept that *it happens* and that it is *somewhat* difficult to predict or control, and that there's no explaining it in a way that pleases the hardcore skeptics *as yet*.

Once you accept that it occurs, it is more likely to occur. Stop chasing the butterfly, listen to some "Hotel California", chill out, and let the bug come to you. ;)

As for changing real bodies, we still don't fully get the *complete* roles of neurotransmitters in the *whole* brain, we are just *now* getting a clue on that and how synapses work. There are still glial cells to figure out (half the mass of the brain!) and neurohormones like cortisol and oxytocin (sp?--I mean the stuff the brain releases in learning and/or orgasm). Never mind the *utterly unique* A-to-I amino acid reaction that *only* occurs in the brains of *humans* and *great apes*, proving our close genetic heiritage *once and for all*. :roll:

And never mind that matter has both a particle and a wave nature at the same time....it's just that ordinary *heat* drowns out the waveforms usually (unless you have the cryogenic tools to make a Bose-Einstien Condensate, where the liquid gas cools down to such a point that all the atoms present *get coherent* on a wave level and become *one* in wave function rather like a laser *of atoms*).

Point is, reality is more malleable than most folks think. I mean, what are thoughts if not waves? What is matter if not an *averaged out* waveform (the total net average of *all* the waveforms of *all* molecules present)?

Trust me, it's possible to take one kind of wave (say a thought or meme, of dollness) and *copy and paste*, or superimpose said wave over the *averaged out* waveform of matter (say a living person). Me and one of my lady dolls have *done this before*, I actually was able through meditation to alter her body in a doll-like direction temporarily, and she still has the *larger* breasts and *hourglass* figure to prove it (all she needs is a digital camera and some time off from her *three jobs* to take the pics and prove it). She can either maintain the bodily shape changes on her own, or keep her hair and skin shiny but not both, that takes too much effort.

And now...fair's fair. :twisted: Now she has plans to do something similar, if more subtle, to me. ;) And on occasion I do feel different, momentarily altered....contact me in email or IM for further details (private message might do initially, but I don't know how it holds up to extended private discussion).

Thanks for your time,

Brad Poe

[danmalara]

I don't know what to say. 8O I'm shocked at how much you know, I want to know everything you know. Everything from the quantum physics to the rest of the brain stuff. You have got to spend some time talking to me, and you can be expecting a PM from me. I want to know everything there is to know about the brain, that's my future career. You are the most knowledgeable person I've met yet. You have to teach me some things!!!

[Max]

Remote Viewing has been on the news for the past ten years. The CIA gave up on the research because it was useless.

All this talk about synchronicity and sub-atomic particle physics is interesting but I've never seen ANY report on remote viewing that linked this research with any real hard science.

If the CIA gave up on it and released the data from classified status what does that tell you? Had it really been effective they would be using it and it would still be classified.

[Brainiac]

Could be that they said they gave up on it to dissuade others from trying.

To paraphrase an aquaintance of mine; Let's not forget about Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater who, at around the turn of the 20th century, wrote an exhaustive study of psychic investigation of subatomic structure called [url=http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/8170592429/qid=1116057301/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/701-6271657-7025108]"Occult Chemistry: Investigations by Clairvoyant Magnification into the Structure of the Atoms of the Periodic Table and of Some Compounds"[/url]. This book was read in the 1970s by one Dr. Stephen Phillips, a physicist. He had an epiphany whilst doing so and realised that Besant and Leadbeater had in fact been unknowingly writing about quarks. After doing much contemplating and figuring he apparently proved that what they had been doing were influencing the subatomic particles they were psychically looking at. He wrote all his studies down in a book called [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/8122412092/qid=1116057918/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-9889721-7921622?v=glance&s=books&n=507846]"The ESP of Quarks and Superstrings"[/url].

[Max]

Those crafty CIA people.. sure.. that must be why. :)

Well I hope no one is remote viewing me right now cause i just woke up and I'm not wearing anything.

[Cubeguru]

Hey folks,

(a hell of a lot of jibberish i couldnt barely even be bothered reading because well, im a very lazy guy and i really couldnt be bothered)

Thanks for your time,
Brad Poe

WOW you like to talk, you must know absolutely tonnes, or you like to ramble, i ramble, it happens all the time, kinda like right now actually...hehe...il leave now..

oh yeah and remote veiwing does seem a little pointless, apart from major places like the pentagon and the white house, oh yeah who else heard that bush fired anti-aircraft missiles at a cloud, just because on the sensors at the white house the cloud made a certain shape on the sensors.....idiots. :twisted: :D 8)

[b-poe-01]

Hey folks,

(a hell of a lot of jibberish i couldnt barely even be bothered reading because well, im a very lazy guy and i really couldnt be bothered)

Thanks for your time,
Brad Poe

WOW you like to talk, you must know absolutely tonnes, or you like to ramble, i ramble, it happens all the time, kinda like right now actually...hehe...il leave now..

8)

Hey,

Ok, so I did go on a bit. :oops: I was just looking through the thread and noticed that a lot of folks were just rehashing the same old tired, "Yes ESP exists, NO it doesn't!!" crap. And I have done some research and had some experience on the subject.

And...really, sometimes the topic *does* hit a bit of a nerve with me. Like I said before somewhere in all that "jibberish" (sic) (if you're gonna wisecrack on me, learn to spell, please), the ESPer stuff has been a routine and regular part of my life since childhood, and somewhat reliable at my end. Of course, a *lot* of other things, far less *healthy* were also a routine part of my childhood, but I digress....

Point is, I get irritated with the *habit* skeptical folks have of *constantly* raising the bar in terms of what kind of evidence is "good enough" to prove ESP. Seriously, in the 1970s and 1980s, all the skeptics were wanting "consistent, repeatable, double-blind studies".

So just what *were* the CIA/SRI studies if not double-blind and repeatable? Seriously, a lot of folks are saying the stuff was discredited because the CIA declassified it. Bullshit. This is the same agency that was in the dark on a lot of things, *bin Laden* included, prior to 9/11...I am *terribly* sorry to bring that up, but it most recently and clearly *points to* a culture at that agency that *does NOT* tolerate admissions of failure on their part. Meaning, if it was *all* a hoax like I said earlier, they *would NOT* have admitted to spending *a decade* and *millions of taxpayer dollars* on *a hoax*.

But enough about that. :) Point is, it seems like every time *proof* comes in for this "hot potato" subject/phenomena, it gets dismissed out of hand as being *not good enough* and the evidentiary bar gets raised a notch higher for next time.

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear there was a political agenda, running in parallel with the one the evangelicals have of *doing the SAME EXACT thing* as regards *evolution*. As in, skeptical "mainstream" science can't be *caught* admitting that anything might happen or exist that would *demonstrate* that human mentality or consciousness *might* exist as an *energetic* phenomenom *apart from* the physical brain. Because then we'd have to get into a *theory of soul* that even in it's most impartial, quantum-mechanical form would be a *football* that might give the evangelical *hordes* an excuse to attempt a *touchdown* with. :roll:

Ok, sorry I did it again. Point is...if science wants to keep going as being *objective* then there is a need to look at the *hot potato* issues like ESP with fresh, clear eyes and *not* dismiss evidence (such as it is, granted, I know there isn't much of quality out there) out of hand in the name of being "politically correct".

Ok, you can go back to snipping more "jibberish" now I suppose.

Thanks for your time (I think),

Brad Poe

[makidas]

I knew the CIA released studies on remote viewing, but man. You have done a lot of research and I'm really impressed with all you have to share! Please, do go on if their is anything else! :) :)

[Max]

The point is the "proof" is usually vague and subject to interpretation. If the weight of the proof rests on someone insisting that yes, that is what it means even though it's possible it could also mean something else.

Usually the skeptics are also avid Scifi fans and would love nothing more than to find real proof of something. But usually the proof shows up as anecdotal, claims of 'experiences', memories, or supposed video and photo evidence that never really stands up to muster.

The believers always seem to fall back on unseen "energy fields" which of course they can pose, but not prove with any objective kind of evidence.

Sure there's a political agenda. The skeptics want irrefutable proof, that aligns with the claims.

A thing either is or is not true. How you feel about it, and how many believe you has nothing to do with it.

Electromagnetism is a field of energy with properties that are measurable. However, the energy fields claimed by 'psychics' exist only in their heads apparently.

Show us some proof. :)

The bar of evidence has not been raised each time. It's never been met.

[sandy82]

First off....no offense to the skeptics here, but you could do a Google search, using the terms "remote viewing" and "Stanford Research Institute" (or its initials, SRI) and look up the material so far released by the CIA... .

Brad, I took your advice to the extent I could. I consulted Google.

First of all, I had to decide whether specialized information, by its nature, is democratic or elitist. In other words, should I believe the searches that garner the most, or the least, hits?

I did a test. I typed in "earth is flat" and got 64,000 hits. Most people consider this false.

Then I typed "earth is bipolar" and got 15 hits. Most people consider this true...except perhaps those who fit the "people are bipolar" category. (These people got 91 hots.)

With the ground rules in place, I performed this high-level research.
Search results are followed by number of hits. (Lowest numbers
show the truth, as believed by the elite.) Where is the emoticon for "I'm pulling your leg?
"Remote viewing"...................................................................... 318,000
"Stanford Research Institute"........................................................91,500
"Stanford Research Institute" + "remote viewing"...........................4,440

These 4,440 hits revealed urls for such sponsors as:
--biomindsuperpowers
--militaryremoteviewers
--handanalysis
--ufoconspiracy
I couldn't find any sites sponsored by Stanford or the CIA, and I don't like to rely on second-hand information. So, I continued my research.

"Stanford Research Institute" + "remote viewing" + "aliens".................757
"Stanford Research Institute" + "remote viewing" + "martians"...............41

I was staggered by the data at one of these exclusive, not-for-the-masses sites.

"Highly controversial data has come from remote viewing, developed by Stanford Research Institute and the CIA, suggesting that an ancient race of Martians have survived a cataclysm on their planet eons ago and some of them still exist today. This data suggests that most of them presently live below the surface of Mars while others have already migrated to Earth and have merged with certain latin American cultures. This paradigm shifting data even suggests that these humanoid beings, who apparently look a lot like humans, also reside underneath certain mountains on Earth. This data has been promoted by Dr. Courtney Brown, a remote viewer and Associate Professor at Emery University, through his books Cosmic Voyage and Cosmic Explorers."

(From a site called absoluteastronomy. It has its own encyclopedia, with the preceding entry on "Martian".)

Brad, Emery University is spelled wrong, but it did pick up 941 hits. In contrast, Emory University's hits totaled 2,970,000. Amazingly enough, Emory University did/does have a faculty member named Courtney Brown. (He's living testimony to academic freedom.) Here's what a member of the university's psychology department said about him...on an official Emory University site:

"The most recent example of this conflict at Emory involves Dr. Courtney Brown, an associate professor in the political science department. Brown's actions and words have, to put it mildly, aroused considerable ridicule and controversy at Emory and in the broader academic community. In his new book, Cosmic Voyages: A Scientific Discovery of Extraterrestrials Visiting Earth, Brown claims to use powers of "remote viewing" (an alleged psychic ability permitting individuals to "see" objects at enormous distances) to visit Mars and observe the actions of aliens. He purports to have uncovered indisputable evidence that two races of extraterrestrials, Martians and Greys, left the red planet centuries ago and have taken up residence in the dark recesses of Earth.

"But Brown does not stop there. His remote viewing methods, which are "as rigorously controlled as those used in any solid social science text," have revealed that Adam and Eve were architects of a genetic engineering project and that numerous Star Trek episodes were written with the assistance of aliens. In one of the book's more remarkable chapters, "The Grey Mind," Brown claims to have "entered the mind" of an extraterrestrial and investigated its psychological make-up. Brown, who directs the "Farsight Institute" in Atlanta, offers seminars--at a cost of $3,000 per head--that promise to provide attendees with the psychic abilities he has mastered."

Wow, what a deal. Three thou per person!

Brad, thanks for your posts. You have a great sense of humor. We are in your debt.

I am impressed with your research techniques...just as I'm sure you're impressed with mine. :wink:

[Dammi]

Wow.. Did I create a fuss or what? :D
But I remembered something I read in a magazine once and decided to dig it up..

[url]http://www.jules.org/random-thoughts.html[/url]

It's a research on how a mind can affect computers. They configure the computer so it produses random numbers which is then put in a "wave-like" form. The subject is supposed to "will" the graph to change. It's really quite interesting :)

And this [url]http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Global_Consciousness/id/9788[/url]

THAT'S freaky.. it suggest that there is an Global Consciousness. It's a little tool that creates a random grpah. And always when something "big" is going to happen it begins to spike. It happened for example when 9/11 happened and the Tsunami. It also detects little things, found a list somewhere.