Human Pride

[Linja]

At the moment I feel a tremendous pride in my human genetics. I feel like I'm going to burst at the chest this feeling is so strong. I've felt it so many times before, but right now, it's amazing.

This may seem like a stupid topic, but I don't. Are you proud to be a homo sapien as I am? If so, give reasons, if not, give reasons. I just want to hear people's opinions on this. There have been times when I've been ashamed of being a human, mainly when I look at the way we treat our planet, but that shame has passed (although the environment is still a strong issue in my mind).

So let me know how you feel.

-Linja

[Mortal]

It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. That is the difference between dog and man.

I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse.

Mark Twain

[sandy82]

Excellent topic, Linja. I would have expected no less.

I feel the same pride that you do. It's hard to understand why many in today's culture seem hell-bent on damaging a living, functioning system that has advanced so markedly through the eons.

I have some nuances, and I'd be interested in your reactions. First of all, some words have varying connotations. Take ambition, for instance. In planning a career, choosing the proper degree(s), and concentrating on the steps leading to the goal...in those circumstances, ambition is a wonderful thing, without which the world would still be an undeveloped place. Without ambition, picture the ads--PR being the genuine oldest profession, as the open windows on the Reeperbahn attest. "Own your own condo cave in the south of France. Drawing on the walls permitted. Only Cro-magnons allowed. No Neanderthals need apply."

Ambition, the same word, has its darker side. Lady Macbeth...whom we expect to run for even higher office here in several years. Pride also has a double edge. Justified, productive self-esteem is a great thing. Egotistical, self-absorbed patting of one's own shoulder is less attractive. Both can come under the heading of pride. You go with the former, and so do I.

In terms of pride, one of the biggest advances for humans was the development of self-awareness...looking into the water of a placid pool and realizing the concept of "That's me." My view, fwiw, is that self-awareness, positive pride, and man's slower-developing ability to recognize limits prompted the belief that his 'Me-ness" went on forever--after all, how could any thinking and feeling creation so wonderful, so self-contained, so real...how it could have an end? Thus was born the concept of the soul. From there the shamans, the witch doctors, and the priest(esse)s took over. They combined the long-understood stick and carrot alternative with self-awareness. The concept of the eternal state of never-ending "me-ness" was hitched to a binary notion of what eternity would be like. Obey the witch doctor now and later you get to live in pleasure in the clouds. Disobey the witch doctor and you will get a pickaxe in the fiery depths. Forever. The third oldest profession.

A former Jesuit recently predicted that this century would be marked by a contest between broad science and narrow metaphysics and that, in the end, science would win.

Yes, I share your pride. I welcome the topic. It's an open door to many related subjects. Thanks for using a first-rate mind.

At the moment I feel a tremendous pride in my human genetics. I feel like I'm going to burst at the chest this feeling is so strong. I've felt it so many times before, but right now, it's amazing.

This may seem like a stupid topic, but I don't. Are you proud to be a homo sapien as I am? If so, give reasons, if not, give reasons. I just want to hear people's opinions on this. There have been times when I've been ashamed of being a human, mainly when I look at the way we treat our planet, but that shame has passed (although the environment is still a strong issue in my mind).

So let me know how you feel.

-Linja

[Lord_Mizaru]

I vote agnostic. I am who I am and there's not much I can do about it. Proud to be human? Nah. Not really. Proud to be who I am? More often than not. So I'm agnostic. I'd be proud to be whoever I am if I was me or if I was Martian.

[loadedkaos]

I'm sure my parents are proud that I'm a human, after all they had a hand in creating me. Other than that though I think of pride as something you usually haft to do to achieve it. I'm not proud I'm a human I did nothing to become one, just the same I'm not proud that I'm white I did nothing to get this way either.

[Linja]

Hmm, interesting opinions all round.

Thanks Sandy for your piece, I feel the same way you do, with many words possessing double meanings. I think, like you, that it all comes down to the individual and their choice of action. I hope that I make good choices that will benefit not only mankind, but life as a whole. I apologise in advance if I don't.

Mortal, from your post, I'm assuming that you don't share pride in your race. Care to elaborate on why this is?

Lord Mizaru, you have a good point. I've often thought, that I'm proud to be human, but if I was something else, I'd be proud to be that instead. You can only be proud of what you are, and because I'm human, I am proud to be one, although I personally don't think that's hard considering all we've achieved. If I were a fish (a self aware one), then I would probably have a harder time being proud of that, because fish have achieve considerably less than humans have (by a human measurement of achievement, mind you).

Loadedkaos, you feel that it is onyl reasonable to take pride in personal achievement? That's a very nice view to take. As how can one take personal claim to something that they personally have worked nothing towards? Well, I take claim anyway, for all human achievements. I wouldn't dream of putting my name to it, but I would put the human name to it, and because I'm human, I feel proud of what we as a whole have achieved, but as of yet, I havn't made my own contribution to the human race, but I plan to do so.

All in all, I thank you for you contributions so far, they have been intelligent and thought provoking. Strangely, this has bolstered my pride, because it enforces my view that humans are generally, intelligent and reasonable beings. Which, in my opinion, makes us superior to other known life.

-Linja

[Mortal]

Mortal, from your post, I'm assuming that you don't share pride in your race. Care to elaborate on why this is?

I just have to ask what we have done to merit pride over what, say, a dog does? We are human, that is what we are and we as the only known sentient life, on this planet, we are responsible for all the good and all the evil (read: bad) in the world. To say pride of being a human is to condone both all good and all evil (read: bad) in the world. Therefore I am not proud, neither am I ashamed.

[Tribial_Tiger79]

Hello,


I agree with Mortal

[makidas]

I'd have to agree with Lord_Mizaru on this one, I feel if I were any living creature I'd be happy to be me. Say if I were a cat, I would still have wants and desires, I would still dream, Sandy on self-awareness, maybe I misunderstood, but do you mean to say that humans are the only self-aware creature? Animals aren't so different from us. Take the Gorillas that have learned sign language. My theory is that many animals do not communicate vocally, most communicate via telepathy. Is that not so far fetched? Can a dog not tell a storm is coming before it hits? Or how about the fact that tigers and dogs have been known to predict people having seizures before they happen. Or how about how a feline will always warm up to a sick child? Not to mention they obviously dream as I've already stated, otherwise they wouldn't twitch when they sleep. They obviously have desires just like us the way they beg while we're eating. I seen on Max X not too long ago where an elephant in captivity got it's foot stuck in a tire swing, four or so other elephants came to help it, are these not sentient actions? Do animals not feel feelings? When you leave your dog at home does it not whimper? When you pet your cat does it not purr? Yes animals operate on basor instincts but aren't humans born with a few instincts? Like the ability to laugh or cry? My question is what exactly seperates us from the rest of the animals beside the fact that we walk upright and communicate vocally. My thoughts at the moment, all for now.

[sandy82]

Linja, I'm sorry to say it, but I have to go with Mortal on this. Two reasons.

1. Mortal uses broad generalities, and I'm sure he/she applies them first personally before ascribing them to anyone else.

2. I hear that Mortal stayed up late at nights planning the spring tsunami, the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens, every drought in the Sahel...not to mention the season's first tropical storm. :)

Mortal, the enemy of the good is the perfect. Man's imperfections do not automatically mean that man is bad.

Efforts to perfect mankind have led to some of the worst tyrannies this world has ever known.

Live with the imperfections while trying to encourage thought and kindness around the edges. It beats the alternatives.

And now, back to the originally scheduled broadcast, already in progress.

(W)e are responsible for all the good and all the bad in the world. To say pride of being a human is to condone both all good and all bad in the world. Therefore I am not proud, neither am I ashamed.

[sandy82]

Makidas, excellent points on the various animals. You are obviously a fellow animal lover. Dogs and elephants are among the most social of animals. Once you know a dog, you know what the barks mean. Much of the time, the bark is a positive hold-over from when dogs traveled in packs. It means, "Hey, guys! Come look at what I see." Elephants can go into deep depression when separated from their peers.

I meant self-awareness in the sense of awareness of oneself as an individual personality combined with the ability to arrange data and perform a measure of abstract thinking. "I'm sure I will be here, in some form, forever." There's the "I" with all its implications, the time concept of "forever", and the ability to envision different states of being.

Thanks for pointing that out. I should have been clearer.

[dharden]

In terms of pride, one of the biggest advances for humans was the development of self-awareness...looking into the water of a placid pool and realizing the concept of "That's me."

I think that goes beyond self-awareness into what I think of as recursive self-awareness - being aware of being aware of being aware, etc.

[aeroue]

I don't reckon we are anything particualrly special we are basically the same as most animals.

The only real difference being animals adapt to fit their environments, whereas we destroy our environments in order to adapt them to us.

[Mortal]

Linja, I'm sorry to say it, but I have to go with Mortal on this. Two reasons.

1. Mortal uses broad generalities, and I'm sure he/she applies them first personally before ascribing them to anyone else.

2. I hear that Mortal stayed up late at nights planning the spring tsunami, the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens, every drought in the Sahel...not to mention the season's first tropical storm. :)

Mortal, the enemy of the good is the perfect. Man's imperfections do not automatically mean that man is bad.

Efforts to perfect mankind have led to some of the worst tyrannies this world has ever known.

Live with the imperfections while trying to encourage thought and kindness around the edges. It beats the alternatives.

And now, back to the originally scheduled broadcast, already in progress.

Sandy, seems we must meet again. No one wants to perfect mankind. But I see nothing wrong with striving for perfection in your own life as long as you accept that it is unattainable. If we must play word games then I'll change my post to read Good and Evil and we can leave it at that. I don't consider natural disasters to be evil.

The point of my post is that man is not bad, nor good, but both.

[Jack]

As far as genetics go.. All known life on this planet derives from the same source. When I remember that our link goes back, unbroken, billions of years... I am moved beyond words.

Am I proud of being human? What does it mean to be human? When I look at most people, I see automatons following the paths laid for them by their genetics and their environment. Most people lead lives as rigid as though they belonged to an insect hive. What's the difference between a homosexual-ohio-methodist and a worker ant? Each of us is conditioned to respond. What happens to you when you think about vivisecting a human baby? Do you get a feeling of disgust? Repugnance? How about a dish of your favorite food? Or that super-hot (fe)male you saw today? What, no response you say? Did your breathing change? Did your face flush?

Buddha, Jesus, Einstein, Tesla.. I am not proud of being human.. but when I think of our potential..

-----------Mortal-----------
There go those broad generalities, Mortal. Once again I seek definitions. What is perfection, in your eyes? What does it mean to be sentient?

I agree that man(if we must speak in such generalities) is filled with the potential for both evil, and good. I must say that we haven't really done much of the latter until recently.

I don't think that we can know what is impossible. We can only say that something is impossible at any given moment. It seems to me that life on this planet will stop at nothing less than perfection.
--------aeroue---------
What about beavers? Ants? Termites?

[Mortal]

-----------Mortal-----------
There go those broad generalities, Mortal. Once again I seek definitions. What is perfection, in your eyes? What does it mean to be sentient?

I agree that man(if we must speak in such generalities) is filled with the potential for both evil, and good. I must say that we haven't really done much of the latter until recently.

I don't think that we can know what is impossible. We can only say that something is impossible at any given moment. It seems to me that life on this planet will stop at nothing less than perfection.

I'm sorry you don't like generalities but I thought this was about the general topic of Human Pride. I'm not sure I follow anything else mentioned but if you want the definition for any word I use please I refer you to Dictionary.com. I don't presume the arrogance that my definition of anything can override the accepted language. If I were to do that then communication would cease between everyone, everywhere.

[Linja]

Wow, a lot to reply to... I'll just do it in order... Look for your name for a reply.

Mortal,
I think that humans have done much to merit pride over dogs and other animals. We show an understanding of the universe around us that is seemingly void to animals. Animals (as science would suggest) have a limited impact on the world in comparison to us. We work on understanding the very laws of nature and the universe. We have the power to change the world, and even the power to leave this world. No animal shows this level of intelligence and power. On the same token though, we unfortunantly use our minds and power to great evil, and that is sad to see, but it all comes down to what the individual does, and in general, we have much superiority over animals.

Makidas,
I agree with you. I read a book about theories on animal telepathy, and I must say it was very convincing. I saw a movie about dolphins, and the narrator was talking about how scientists were fascinated by dolphin's ability to communitate in quite a level of detail, but they weren't sure how they do, as the sounds they create are limited it variation, so there must be more to it. They concluded that it was something unknown, possibly body-language in combination with clicks, or telepathy. I personally favour the latter, as they can also communicate with humans on an impressive level. If there is no telepathy involved, there must be something else astounding allowing them this level of interaction. As for what seperates us for the animals, refer to my reply to Mortal, if you havn't already.

Sandy,
I'm not sure what you're agreeing with Mortal on sorry... If it was what you quoted, then I too agree, although I am proud. I don't know what you meant by #2, about Mortal studying natural disasters either, apologies again. I agree with what you said about perfection. As perfection is impossible to define as anything more than a fictional image, perfection is only possibly two things. Non-existent, or imperfect. Having imperfection being perfection itself is unfortunately a paradox, but it's still a possibility.

dharden,
Nicely put.

Mortal,
On perfection. Nicely put also. I agree that man is neither good nor evil but both, and again, in my view this just comes down to the individual. There are good men, and evil men. I'm not sure why this is, maybe the devil, maybe it's necessary for the cosmic balance of negative and positive (ying-yang/tao), whatever it is, you're dead right. I just hope that I am good.

Jack,
Beautiful post. That's going to keep me awake tonight, and I agree very much with everything you said. :)

Thanks a lot for your intelligent posts, you guys always give me heaps to think about.

-Linja

[Mortal]

I think that humans have done much to merit pride over dogs and other animals. We show an understanding of the universe around us that is seemingly void to animals. Animals (as science would suggest) have a limited impact on the world in comparison to us. We work on understanding the very laws of nature and the universe. We have the power to change the world, and even the power to leave this world. No animal shows this level of intelligence and power. On the same token though, we unfortunantly use our minds and power to great evil, and that is sad to see, but it all comes down to what the individual does, and in general, we have much superiority over animals.
-Linja

I couldn't agree more. That is why I say to express pride I would be condoning the good and the evil we have done and therefore i am not proud nor ashamed as I am both and neither.

[Linja]

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Mortal. Would I be right in saying that for you it's like scales? Evil on one side and good on the other, they both balance each other out so you're neutral?

Sorry, I just desire clarification, not that you were unclear.

-Linja

[Mortal]

Exactly.

[kitnoki]

I still can't beleive people are trying to divide humans from other animals :) Each time they try, some one shoots it down. "Humans are the only Furless biped!" How about a chicken? "Humans are the only ones that use tools!" Sorry, try again, otters break clams using rocks. "Humans are the only ones that MAKE tools" Realy, Can't you try harder than that? But if you insist... Chimps make termite fishing sticks. "Humans are selfaware!" so are chimps, gorillas,and oragutans....

Am I Proud to be human?







How could I be? I was never one to find out :)

[sandy82]

Kitnoki, I certainly don't want to belittle animals in any way. But I think that, among many others, some important distinctions between humans and animals can be made. For instance...

Man is the only animal/mammal/primate that can:
--record his thoughts and observations, and those of others, in an intelligible, durable, and memory-friendly format readily understood by other humans in far distant places;
--make hundreds or thousands of copies of his written record;
--distribute those copies to humans with similar interests throughout the world;
--thereby permit rapid vicarious learning and speed the advance of knowledge about processes, products, people, poetry, history, philosophy, etc.

Sir Isaac Newton expressed the idea with a concrete example in a letter written in 1676.

One phrase in the letter is rightly famous, and it is mentioned on numerous websites. In recognition of our colleague who started this thread, I quote from an Australian site.

http: // www. cyber. com.au /users /conz /shoulders. html

"What Des-Cartes did was a good step. You have added much several ways, & especially in taking þe colours of thin plates into philosophical consideration. If I have seen further it is by standing on þe shoulders of Giants." --Isaac Newton to Robert Hooke, 5 Feb. 1676.

(The Australian site developers have tried to reproduce the relevant part of the letter in a format as close to the original letter as they could. I have been "effronterous" enough to make two small corrections. See The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language (1996), page 41.)

I still can't beleive people are trying to divide humans from other animals :) Each time they try, some one shoots it down. "Humans are the only Furless biped!" How about a chicken? "Humans are the only ones that use tools!" Sorry, try again, otters break clams using rocks. "Humans are the only ones that MAKE tools" Realy, Can't you try harder than that? But if you insist... Chimps make termite fishing sticks. "Humans are selfaware!" so are chimps, gorillas,and oragutans....

<snip>

[Jack]

First things first. No defenses? What do you call limbs, medium size, opposable thumbs, capability for one of the most versatile/highest intelligences on the planet(if not the highest on the planet), tendency to organize in packs, and aggressive/competitive nature? Combine all of that and a few other things, and you get one of the greatest defenses/offenses(again, if not the greatest) on the planet.

Second, it may not be any single ability that sets us apart(other than intellect). But, it seems to me that no other species in existence on the planet(so far, that we know of) has more than half of the attributes that I listed in the first part of this post. Our very versatility(and ability to transmit/receive exact information) is what distinguishes us from the rest of the animals on the planet.

[missypuss]

I have to say I agree with Jack. You are standing at a point in time where if you can believe it everything that you know and have learned about the world , the universe,and the micro cosmos is because you are a human . We have knowlege far greater than even we can imagine. So I am very proud to be human!!

[sandy82]

Jack and missypuss, excellent points. There's an aspect of this information/scientific/technological revolution that I have overlooked until now.

If you go back and look at a 50-year-old encyclopedia, you can understand how an electricity plant worked, or the printing presses at a newspaper, or each machine in an automobile assembly plant. Same with the general procedures for the sorts of medical operations performed then. Also, the law.

Jobs have now become so specialized that a cardiologist can't fully understand what a neurosurgeon does...and neither can fill out his income tax return with any degree of confidence. The patent lawyer is not competent to practice tax law, and vice-versa.

A great visual example of the process. Traffic lights used to change in a regular and unchanging pattern: green, yellow, red. That was it. Now, there are left-turn signals, right-turn signals, high-occupancy lanes, reversible lanes, electronic toll-takers and flash cards. Each traffic light used to operate on its own timer. Now, in the interests of synchronization, the lights have sensors and relays and (in some states) the timing of the lights is done by electronic signal from a master computer in the Highway Department in the state capital.

Can the average person keep up with the changes? More important, are the schools preparing young people for an age we--and they--have never seen?

[missypuss]

Exactly!! Look at the old steam locomotives and compare them to the high speed bullets you can ride on nowadays!! Im quite sure some one somewhere is preparing for the lessons that our children will learn .. probably the guy who has discovered a place where u can slice through time and hes seen the future.. :wink:

[sandy82]

Exactly!! Look at the old steam locomotives and compare them to the high speed bullets you can ride on nowadays!!

missypuss, unfortunately human pride does not stretch to include the US passenger railway system. With some regional exceptions, you can see those 50-year-old diesel trains wheezing down the tracks today. No national system of Intercity trains here...and no TGVs or Chunnels.

Im quite sure some one somewhere is preparing for the lessons that our children will learn.

Let's hope he's not arriving by Amtrak. :wink:

[missypuss]

:P Cant get a train from where I live either Sandy. What was once a railway track is now a lovely cycle path in scenic countryside. Dont know bout Amtrak but since they privitised British Rail, if theres leaves on the line the train aint moving anyway!!

[dharden]

Exactly!! Look at the old steam locomotives and compare them to the high speed bullets you can ride on nowadays!!

missypuss, unfortunately human pride does not stretch to include the US passenger railway system. With some regional exceptions, you can see those 50-year-old diesel trains wheezing down the tracks today. No national system of Intercity trains here...and no TGVs or Chunnels.

In some areas, the tracks are in such a state that speeds may be limited to 20 or 30 mph.

[makidas]

There use to be a huge railway system where I live, now it's just a bunch of atv trails, which is good, because you can pretty much get where you want to go on your atv if you want.