psychokinesis

[nuit09]

Post subject: found my writeup and a series of emails where idiscussed it

Mundane Genesis of the Experiment

Long before I read any practical books on magick and magickal practice I was interested in unexplained phenomenon, Psychism, and so on. One day, years ago, I found and bought a “psi wheel” psychokinesis target. I found that it turned when the hands were placed a short distance away from it. Cute, but it was easy to posit that either heat from my hands or air currents directed by my hands was turning it. A photometer, after all, turns by the action of photons and looks amazingly similar. There it stood until I noticed I could cause the direction to reverse with almost universal success. The times it failed were times when I could barely get it to move at all or not at all. I added electrical forces to my list of possible explanations. From time to time I got friends to try it. Some of them could move it from a greater range than I and do this at times when my results were negligible or non-existent. After a time the little device got relegated to a place on my library shelve as an ornament. After about two years I discovered serious magick of the ceremonial type.

Magickal Background

This is a summary of magickal practices immediately prior to and during my telekinesis experiments.
From the middle of September through December 1997, I had been doing the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, The DMK shortened version of the Middle Pillar, the Circulation of the Body of Light, The Ham Sa exercise, Robert Bruce’s Tactile Chakra exercises, Dr. John Mumford’s Tattwa visualization exercises, Aural sight exercises, Robert Bruce’s astral rope technique, various beginner’s visualization exercises, Kabbalah pathworking and skrying. I had developed at least fair visualization skills as well as some ability to imagine other sensations such as touch, sound, smell, temperature and internal somatic impressions.

Speculation

I think it is important that one has developed some of these abilities prior to trying for a demonstration of Psychokinesis. This is because I do not believe this sort of thing is a “psychic power” in the vulgar sense common in new age literature, but more of a function of magick. Perhaps the reality in which the rotor is turning is made coterminous with or superimposed on the operator’s reality through magickal means not by the functioning of some bizarre hardwired psychic center. In many books I have read on magick and psychism, it is postulated that a fundamental problem is communication. Either communication between the lower and higher self in magick or the conscious and subconscious generally in psychism. The language used in day to day communication by the lower self or conscious mind is not one that is understood by the higher self or subconscious or so I have read. According to this line of thought the language spoken by the subconscious is nonverbal in nature though this is becomes a little hazy in regard to magick varying by tradition. For this reason a means of communicating your desire to the higher self or subconscious by other than verbal means is desirable. In a book on dowsing I read that beginners are advised to first ask questions or search for something that they have prior knowledge of. This along with moving the rods or other paraphernalia in an affirmative motion by force were said to be a way of developing a common language with the otherwise uncommunicative “Other” and establishing a rapport. In other words this link must be created or reinforced and a way to do it was to cheat at first. This was referred to as the cheating principle. In no way did it imply that the operator was to continue this practice after the “rapport” was firmly established. I would later use this as a method of communicating my will to the “Other” despite having tinkered with the rotor target in the past with apparent if only weakly convincing success.

I further read that the more ways you reinforce your will in working magick the better the chance of it having an effect, so when I decided to see if magick could reproduce the apparent PK effects I naturally set out to use as many reinforcement techniques that I could manage at one time.

Psychokinesis Targets

I will start with a description of my primary target object and ideas for other targets. The purpose of using multiple target types is to eliminate potential sources of error in ascribing motion or other physical changes to a certain cause.

My primary target for my last set of experiments was a lightweight four armed aluminum rotor balanced on a rounded needlepoint pivot. The needle pivot was fixed perpendicularly to a solid base. The above apparatus was centered on a solid wooden base to which a large glass dome was set. The base of the dome was recessed into the wooden base via a circle cut into the wood to a depth of over 1/8th inch. I purchased mine ready made but one could be fabricated with relative ease though there is some possibility of creating an asymmetric or unbalanced rotor. To fabricate one all you need is heavy gauge metal foil from a hobby store, a round pointed needle, a small round pointed nail, a hammer, cork or other soft base, glue, some cutters or scissors, a fine felt tipped pin a protractor and straight edge. The rotor pattern is drawn onto the metal foil and carefully cut out, then an impression is made in the center with the nail and hammer and the arms bent down the long axis into a “V” shape. The cork or other base should be glued to a tile or other stable platform. The needle’s eye end should then be pressed deeply into the cork perpendicular to the base.
The rotor is then placed on the needle tip with the indent of the rotor mated to the needle tip. Observe the assembly for tilt and adjust the arms of the rotor until the rotor balances as perfectly as possible. Spin the rotor gently and again check for imbalances adjust if possible. If an imbalance cannot be corrected discard it and fabricate a new rotor. It is really easier to just buy one of the several ready made ones. They range from eight to fifteen dollars and are available from several sources.

This set up greatly reduced the probability of motion of the rotor being caused by errant breezes, vibrations, Static fields and convection cells. The fact that the dome was not evacuated eliminated the possibility of any motion being produced by photon or radiation pressure.

The weight of the rotor made any unwanted impulse turning the rotor somewhat less likely but allowed for the assumption than any genuine PK effect would be very small.

For my experiments I wanted a target that could be subjected to a force whose results I could see right away and not have to rely on statistical or other forms of abstract analysis. This influenced my choice of target object away from RNGs and Die type targets.

I had tried at least one other type of target object but found that I could easily ascribe any changes to mundane causes. I was using a candle flame. The changes in the flames direction of orientation could be explained as air currents and changes in intensity or height could be explained as ordinary combustion factors or impurities in the wick and wax.

Since my initial forays into this topic, by conversation with other magicians and by internet searches I have learned about a few other types of targets which meet my needs.

One is a floating target suspended in water and consisting of a wooden object usually a oblong one. The objective is to control it's drift or orientation through a series of trials. PK confirmation would consist of producing observable motion in a direction chosen ahead of time with the target placed in several different locations. Random motion or motion due to environmental conditions would not count and can be filtered out by choosing different motions and placing the target at different locations.

A less satisfactory target is the good ol' pendulum. Of course, I consider most of them to be too massive to show an easily recognized anomalous movement. So this one requires a little re-tooling. The bob must be light weight but not light enough to be moved by ordinary wind currents or static electricity. Since its motion is very likely small it may help to develop a measuring grid and/or recording stylus to measure any imperceptible displacement.

A sealed foil leafed static charge measuring device could be used. Success conditions would be having the leaves separate or come together only on demand or within a short specified time of initiation of PK efforts with no contact with the target housing nor even close proximity. The Operator also could not engage in any large amount of motion especially rubbing anything together.

I suppose with proper controls, like standard fuel and a protective mantle, a flame control target like the candle one mentioned earlier could be used. Some objective way of measuring variations over a long series of trials and ones that cannot reasonably be explained by the normal motions and behavior of flame would require further thought.

As I stated earlier, I prefer not to use RNGs and other computer driven targets. I have no qualms about using them for recording or measurement purposes. For me PK should affect an object that can be seen and felt. The electrons and holes moving around in a circuit do not fit the bill (IMO.)

Procedure


1. Ritual preliminaries: Perform the LBRP, Middle Pillar, Circulation of the Body of Light, Robert
Bruce’s or Dr. John Mumford’s tactile chakra activation technique (particularly to the minor ones in the center of the palms.) Similar preliminaries may be observed if they produce the proper altered state of consciousness. For example from time to time I used the kanji (kuji kiri) named Kyo or Shen, “direction of energy”, and others related to the task at hand.

2. Use the cheater principle The first few times I attempted to will the rotor to move I gently pushed one a rotor arm with a finger. I did this even though my earlier PK experiments resulted in motion without this aid. I wanted to demonstrate symbolically what was required of the rotor. This was left off after a time.

3. Visualize the aura around the body extending from the hands to swirl around the rotor like a galaxy or a black hole’s accretion disk. Imagine the feel of a recoil or reaction to the energy flow on your hand. Imagine the faint sound of that energy connecting you to the rotor as it flows. Imagine the temperature is a little warmth radiating in flux as the imaginary energy flows.

4. “Will” the rotor to turn. With your eyes open, superimpose the image of the rotor turning so that it becomes almost a willed hallucination. Reinforce your will for the rotor to turn by moving your fingers or arm towards the target slowly with dynamic tension in the muscles.

5. Once you get the rotor to turn, mentally reverse the energy flow in all visualizations. Will it to stop or reverse direction with as much force as used to start the rotor the first time.

6. Increase the distance from the operator to the target incrementally from session to session. See how far you can get some rotation.

Falsification of the Psychokinesis Hypothesis

By now the operator has probably noticed a correlation between his or her will for the rotor to move and the actual movement of the rotor. Now is the time to try to falsify the hypothesis that psychokinesis or magick is at work. To do this add control measures designed to block or expose mundane causative factors since no one knows if directly material effects of magick or telekinesis even exists let alone how to block them if they do. Here are some suggestions of things to try. It is of course not all inclusive. Try to wobble the rotor out of it’s rotation axis: try to get it to jump, anything but it’s normal action. Add a dome or maybe a transparent cup to prevent air currents from reaching the rotor.
Take a lit candle and see how close it must get to the rotor to make it turn by heat. Move the target rotor to different rooms or locations within a room. Pass an activated electrical appliance near it. Observe the target when PK or magick is not being practiced to see if it ever turns on its own.

Observations

I do not claim to have eliminated all possible mundane explanations. I have tried some of these control actions. I think it may be impossible to completely eliminate all such possibilities. I do think that the rotor commences to turn, reverse and stop seemingly on demand when the procedure is used. It does not turn when the procedure is not used unless the dome is off. Based on months of such efforts I must state that I believe PK is the explanation that most fits what I have experienced. I have not practiced this for over a year now but I intend to take it up again in the future. When I do, I will expand it to include Tumo and to investigate the rumored PK events reported during evocation magick. You will have to form your own conclusion as to it’s validity but you cannot do that in good faith without experimenting yourself.

Addendum: If anyone is interested in the sources for the rotor I used let me know and I will provide an address or URL as appropriate.

[nuit09]

Post subject: emails and newsgroup discussion of the above PK experiments

Ø Tom (deleted) wrote in message
<5JWW3.33048$C7.1443792@news1.teleport.com>...
> >
> >(me)<*******@compaq.net> wrote in message
> >news:80gl3c$sm5$1@news.laserlink.net...
> >> So if I make myself a target for the easily amused, so be it.
> >> I bought one of those damned rotor things that purportedly
> >> demonstrate and strengthen PK a few years back.
> >
> >Hehehehe! Oops. Sorry.
> >
> >> The rotor is heavier than the
> >> ones in the scientific instrument mentioned earlier and
> >> it has less surface area.
> >
> >Yes, heavier and shorter vanes will make it less efficient, but may not
> >completely stop it from turning, if it's balanced right.
> >
> >> The dome is not evacuated. In short, It should be harder
> >> for thermal energy or static electricity to move the thing.
> >> So, since we have some pretty heavy skeptics here, and I
> >> cannot think of any reasonable mundane explanations for
> >> the movement, I decided to seek critical input for
> >> reasonable mechanisms that can account for what I saw.
> >
> >Yes, you have. However, your knowledge of the principles involved is
only
> >sketchy, so your attempts to eliminate them as variables was only
partially
> >effective.
> >
> >> First, does a human
> >> hand produce enough thermal energy to penetrate the
> >> dome and turn the rotor?
> >
> >Photometers work by the impact of photons on the vane surface. Both heat
> >and light can cause it to turn. Since it is an inefficient photometer,
as
> >you noted, it may turn only intermittently. You noted a significant
> >reduction in the movement once you reduced the effect of ambient air
> >currents by putting it in a bell jar. This should suggest that air
> currents
> >did play a part in the movement. There are still some small air currents
> >that will continue even inside the bell jar. Air is never entirely
still.
> >Brownian motion, exhibited by all fluids, incluiding air, is still
present
> >and can cause currents to stir up.
> >
> >> How about at a range of one meter? How can I account for a
> >> complete reversal of the spin without repositioning my hand
> >> (this portion without the dome)?
> >
> >The air currents generated by slightly heating one portion of the bell
> jar's
> >inner surface will create currents that make push the vanes in either
> >direction.
> >
> >Perhaps the best evidence for PK, and it is still pretty ambiguous, is
> >presented by Dean Radin.
> >
> >Read his book, "The Conscious Universe".
> >

Tom ********wrote in message
<5JWW3.33048$C7.1443792@news1.teleport.com>...
> >
> >Me<*********@compaq.net> wrote in message
> >news:80gl3c$sm5$1@news.laserlink.net...
> >> So if I make myself a target for the easily amused, so be it.
> >> I bought one of those damned rotor things that purportedly
> >> demonstrate and strengthen PK a few years back.
> >
> >Hehehehe! Oops. Sorry.
> >
>
> LOL. I forgive you.
>
> >The air currents generated by slightly heating one portion of the bell
> jar's
> >inner surface will create currents that make push the vanes in either
> >direction.
> >
> >Perhaps the best evidence for PK, and it is still pretty ambiguous, is
> >presented by Dean Radin.
> >
> >Read his book, "The Conscious Universe".
> >
> I will try to aquire it, thanks for the reference.
> >

Subject: Re: help eliminating sources of error in PK experiment?
> From: ***@springhaven.org (key@springhaven.org)
>
> ME<********@compaq.net> wrote:
> >This may totally destroy any credibilty I had here, but I have
> >something that needs an explanation which I may be too biased to
> >find on my own.
>
> (i could start a whole thread on the above statement...)
>
> >[deletia]
>
> >So, since we have some
> >pretty heavy skeptics here, and I cannot think of any reasonable
> >mundane explanations for the movement, I decided to seek critical
> >input for reasonable mechanisms that can account for what I saw.
> >First, does a human hand produce enough thermal energy to penetrate
> >the dome and turn the rotor?
>
> depends on the rotor.
>
> >How about at a range of one meter?
>
> this is unlikely.
>
> >How can I account for a complete reversal of the spin without
> >repositioning my hand (this portion without the dome)?
>
> i dunno.
>
> >I can only think of static electrical activity and polarity reversal
> >(via biofeedback) as an explanation for this aspect
>
> well i'd keep trying to look. this will establish your null-hypothesis.
>
> >but I do not think a weak static field can penatrate the glass.
>
> depends.
>
> however, you could introduce a wire mesh faraday cage to the experiement,
> this should reduce the effects of EM fields.
>
> * * *
>
> a few things:
>
> 1) write you experiment up in a formal fashion. if you don't know how
> to do this, go to a local college's science department for help.
> theoretically you could go look it up in the library, but that
> prolly won't help you write a good formal experiment.
>
> a formal write up of your experiement would make it easier do peer
> review.
>
> also makes it easier for other people to reproduce your experiment
> themselves.
>
> 2) you should list what you think are the possible alternative causes
> (which you have done to some extent). then you should try to measure
> those effects with a tool other than your rotor.
>
> you could also then remove those effects as possible causes of
movement.
>
> 3) you should not dismiss heat or electricity as the possible causes
> of your movement, or as the real explanation of pk or a type of pk.
> so far from your description, even if the cause is heat or electricity
> it is unlikely an uncontrolled source could make the rotor spin
> clockwise and counter-clockwise. so the experiement could still
> be interesting in that it would demonstrate that a person can
> control heat and em production enough to influence remote objects.
>
> however, see 1, it is also possible there is some experimental
> error you are commiting that isn't in your description.
>
> 4) also you should address physical vibrations as a source of movement.
>
> 5) some other good measurements would be your body's state. electrical
> conductivity, temperature, heart-rate, breathing rate, brain
> activity, etc.
>
> 6) you prolly also need to establish some control conditions also,
> but i'm not focused enough to think of any right now.
>
> >I might add that when I was experimenting I always did the middle
> >pillar and body of light (and got quite psyched up) prior to the ones
> >that were the most dramatic.
>
> 7) you need to provide a detailed description of your middle pillar
> and body of light methods and exercises.
>
> >I am torn between wanting to believe there
> >is something to it and knowing that there are probably perfectly normal
> >explanations for it. Because of this, a proper mundane cause may well
> >elude me.
>
> this is usually the sign of a good scientist.
> asking for help in finding experimental error is another.
>
> >Has any one ever tried something like this?
>
> not i.
>
>
> peter li'ir key
> ***@springhaven.org

Jim ****** wrote in message <382cfc39.17650327@news.plano1.tx.home.com>...
>On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:15:34 -0800, "Jerry Adams"
><**********@compaq.net> wrote:
>
>One question that is missing from all this, or perhaps, an
>implicit assumption. If "PK" is causing the rotor movement,
>how does it accomplish it?


My assumtions are: 1> Pk if it exists at all is normally a very tiny force. 2> It would manifest as a "normal" force known to science
3> The mechanism is unknown but eventually explainable
4> It is produced by an act of will (control is magickal)
>
My "method of moving it" has been three fold: I attempt to see it move, -kind of an induced halucination like visualizing the tracing of lines in a banishing ritual. Secondly I both visualize an aura extending from my hand and swirling around the rotor like a miniature spiral galaxy and will my self to feel a force flowing out in the same patern.


>One control might be to video-tape the appartus during a time
>when you're not attempting to affect it and not even in the
>house. Does it move by itself then? If so, how often. etc.
>
I have noticed slight movement at times. There is never a complete spin now that it is under a dome unless I direct my "will" to it. Prior to that, air currents would spin it at random. Normally a disturbance at low frequency like the artillery fire nearby cause a halting abortive movement. As I cannot vouch for what happens when I am not there, I will arrange for it to be filmed.

This may totally destroy any credibilty I had here, but I have something that needs an explanation which I may be too biased to find on my own. I pride my self on my scientific knowledge and reasoning, yet I also desire to believe some pretty unbelievable things. This subject is one such case. So if I make myself a target for the easily amused, so be it. I bought one of those damned rotor things that purportedly demonstrate and strengthen PK a few years back. It looks like one of those instruments that reacts to radiant energy from a high school physics class. I played with it for a while and sure enough I could start it rotating clockwise or
counter-clockwise as long as I had my hands near it. I chalked this up to convection currents and the difference between the temperature of my hands and the air. After playing for a few months I got to where at times I could rotate it from across the room. I chalked this up to wind currents. So I purchased a glass dome and fitted wood base from the local hobby store. At first this greatly reduced my "miraculous" ability to get it to move, but later I regained some ability to move it from up to 1 meter away. This was never as dramatic as it was without the dome.The rotor is heavier than the ones in the scientific instrument mentioned earlier and it has less surface area. The dome is not evacuated. In short, It should be harder for thermal energy or static electricity to move the thing. So, since we have some pretty heavy skeptics here, and I cannot think of any reasonable mundane explanations for the movement, I decided to seek critical input for reasonable mechanisms that can account for what I saw. First, does a human hand produce enough thermal energy to penetrate the dome and turn the rotor? How about at a range of one meter? How can I account for a complete reversal of the spin without repositioning my hand (this portion without the dome)? I can only think of static electrical activity and polarity reversal (via biofeedback) as an explanation for this aspect but I do not think a weak static field can penatrate the glass.

I might add that when I was experimenting I always did the middle pillar and body of light (and got quite psyched up) prior to the ones that were the most dramatic. I am torn between wanting to believe there is something to it and knowing that there are probably perfectly normal explanations for it. Because of this, a proper mundane cause may well elude me. Has any one ever tried something like this? If so what were your hypotheses and conclusions?

You have brought up some good points as well as useful suggestions I shall have to consider. Thank you for a serious answer.

On the subject of vibrations I do not believe these can account for it under the local conditions that existed at the time. It is possible that a harmonic amplification occurred but this would have happened to the device even when I was not experimenting and that was not the case. Electrical activity or thermal activity could account for the movement, but as you said this may be the mechanism behind "true" PK. Interesting, I would have to control for this 50% of the time so as to test it. If it works, I do not really care what mechanism is behind it as long as it is identified. "a rose by any name would etc...." I have already made the assumption that if there is a such thing as PK it would have to be a very tiny effect or else there would be hoards of self proclaimed "jedi" mucking around Vegas. At any rate what is the easiest way to rig a portable faraday cage? As for biometric surveillance, I don't think I can afford the funds required to acquire good equipment. I'm afraid I must content myself with observation for the most part. However, If you can suggest another apparatus which will react to small forces (such as I believe PK to be, provided it exists at all) I might be able to justify that. Especially if it is easier to control for unwanted influences.

I have seen die experiments but I believe they leave much to be desired. Other factors; either "natural" or "supernatural", could explain any result above mere chance. Further, according to my working hypothesis a die may be too massive to effect even if PK were a real phenomenon.

If PK works by controlling the electrical fields around, or heat radiated from a hand then PK could not influence a computer picking a random quadrant of the CRT. This would appear to rule out a computer program to test for PK in this manner. This assumes the mechanism is electrical or thermal in nature and localized around the body.


Good ideas. Note though, that there would not appear to be any difference between when the experiment was occuring and when it was not if this was a factor. In other words movement should occur when the experiment is not in progress if AC fields were to blame. I will try the toaster thing though to see if close proximity to an AC field has any effect. I had been exploring DC and static effects on the electrical side of the question.


Josh *****<*****@stargate.net> wrote in message
<382CB7CD.C9752C34@stargate.net>...
>How about EM fields for electrical appliances. How about the wiring in
your
>walls. Test to see if the thing moves when you put it by the toaster.
>
>Jerry Adams wrote:

Hell, it may be too late for all of that. At least around here...

Ben Dover wrote in message <382cb9a5$0$18224@news.en.com>...
>
>****@springhaven.org:
>
>>read: people will think you are a nut.
>>
>>life is more than science.
>>
>Keep quiet about your findings, then no one can argue.
>

What? Ack! The Erisian cult has followed me here! Is no where safe?

Ben Dover wrote in message <382cd0c8$0$29637@news.en.com>...
>A few keystrokes can change your existence
>Quiet now, you don't want to rankle the Illuminati.
>
>Ben
>
>**********wrote in message <80ie35$3vf$1@news.laserlink.net>...
>>Hell, it may be too late for all of that. At least around here...
>>
I am increasingly fond of a quote from Romeo and Juliet: " a rose by any name would smell as sweet...." Psychic powers, bio-feedback, whatever; it is still pretty neat.

I have had other people do it. Some were able to affect it from farther away than me. Others couldn't move it at all. Most could. (also most thought I was tripping.) I still don't know the exact mechanism but it is worthy of further study. Middle pillar and Body of light are in many ways equivalent to kundalini or ki/qi/chi exercises.

Thanks for your input. It strengthens the biofeedback hypothesis. One of three main probabilities I am considering.

John B wrote in message ...
>I am not sure that this will be helpful, I have never done a similar
>experiment. But this is what I was thinking:
>
> You could have increased the amount of heat radiating from your hands
>through manipulation of your internal energy and channeled to your hands
I
>don't know about the middle pillar exercise but some kundalini yoga or Tai
>Chi, or any martial art, would accomplish this) Having semi conscious
>control of your body heat might explain how you caused it to spin in
>different directions. I know it doesn't explain the domed part of your
>experiment. Maybe you should have repeated it yourself several times or
>brought in someone else and tried to get the same results with them. That
>might have ruled out or confirmed psychic powers.
>

Don't worry. That is a valid point so I do not take offense. I have other Ideas that are related to this that I did not post because there is no evidence to support them yet. If further experimentation checks out there may be a nondestructive and not technologically based way to improve output efficiency. It is based on esoteric and religious speculation.

Because I had what may be physical evidence (maybe not) for this portion of the problem I chose to expose this portion unimpressive as it may be. Since this subject and my expansions on it seem to be out of synch with the prevailing views on magick (internal/ psychological) here I will wait for evidence for the wilder portions of it prior to saying anything about it. You may see me asking some strange questions, though.

John B wrote in message ...
>
> I don't mean to be a shit about this, . But if you have to be in
>arm's reach of the thing, and it's something you could have moved with your
>hand, I don't see the point. >directly instead of channeling it through
your muscles. I don't see the >practical application here, but the theory is interesting.
>

Nooooooo! I would never stoop so low as to think about going to Vegas with this. Really, I'm shocked..... (note to self: Get quotes on tickets to Vegas ASAP) =]

Actually it probably will never come to that. But there is nothing wrong with thuermatugy as opposed to theurgy. Practical magick versus High Magick.



Sparrow 13 wrote in message ...
> Practical applications....hmmm, let's see--dice? Roulette wheels?
>Lotto-jackpot-determining pingpong balls? It'd be worthwhile to be sung of
>as "the mage who broke the bank at Monte Carlo", wouldn't it? Or Atlantic
>City?...Stateline maybe? Seriously, if I developed reliable psychokinesis,
>I'd head for a casino and use the proceeds to set up a fully-appointed
>temple among other things--then explore that legendary Road Of Excess and
>see if there's really a Palace Of Wisdom down there, or just an IHOP. Sort
>of like having a rabbit's foot with a money-back guarentee. Oh well, my
>magicks and aspirations have been called low before.
>
>~honi soit qui mal y pense~
>
> Sparrow 13,
> the Extremely Delux One
> [ dig out the bullet to reply]
>

I have read in more than one book that evocations done improperly may result in physical blows being struck or thrown or moved objects. Having no experience in evocation I cannot judge whether this was hype by the authors or a real occurrence. It seems to fly into the face of the internal model for evoked entities and the seemingly prevalent point of view about the nature of magickal experiences expressed here. If anyone has had experience with this putative aspect of evocation could you please share your experiences and theories pertaining to your experiences. I believe the authors were Dion Fortune and Aliester Crowley but haven't found the exact references yet. I realize a post like this may be troll bait, but I'm serious so please restrain yourselves and humor me a little.

Thanks tom. It is something to consider. Others in other forums have mentioned electric shock or similar perceptions while observing an evocation (which your observations may apply to). I will continue to gather anecdotes and opinions to aid my formative opinions on this subject. What I hope is descriptive may not ultimately match my conclusions, but one can always hope.

Tom ********* wrote in message <2lx04.55647$C7.2486107@news1.teleport.com>...
>
>I've had a number of experiences with evocational magick in which all my
>senses were involved, including that of touch. I've also had experiences
in
>which precariously balanced objects fall at times when I am predisposed to
>attribute the event to something going on in my mind. This is how omens
are
>created, too.
>
>However, the training of perception that I have undergone has made it
>possible for me to physically experience something that I have imagined but
>which others cannot experience. Most folks do this in dream states. Have
>you ever felt a touch in a dream? Didn't it feel, at the time, like a real
>touch? It is possible, in my experience, to do this while awake, given the
>proper circumstances.

[CuriousG]

Can you link to a university or government study regarding PK powers?

[nuit09]

Can you link to a university or government study regarding PK powers?

hmmmm there are some. puthov and targ maybe. and one is in a reply from Tom S. in the post of e-mail exchanges
I'm certain either a lexus nexus search or a simple google search can bring up some.

[Casey]

it is not whether the hand itself can or can not it is whether or not your hand can be a guided to act as an electrical current conductor... to manifest unbelievable things.... neutron and proton and electron align right many things can happen.. such as lightning strike.... or tapping the right energy lines to bring an old tree down... usual chanting... This a couple of videos from a well known Shaman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tjMXonWYMc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS8QAx183do

It may appear like magic or myth to those who do not know electricity or how to work with thunderbeings.

I know I have done, witnessess and experienced things and events i can not even give terminology too...

[ProfessorPig]

what happened to the good old days of manifesting half peeled oranges?