active vs. passive wetting

[Ntranced]

hello everybody,

btw, when i'm triggered with the "xxxxxxxxxxxx" trigger (hard to avoid feeling the effects even when writing the words!) it brings me just near the edge, but not over it (so far). i feel like i need to go but it is never badly enough that i actually lose control.

be carefull typing triggers, some folks around here will trigger from reading it.. :twisted:

[Ladon]

I've come to believe, at least to some extent, that 'lose control' is a negative suggestion, and as such, may actually reinforce your 'problem.'

The dog is not chasing the cat.

What do you have to think of, before you can understand this sentence? A dog chasing a cat, no? If you think of 'losing control' you have to think of control FIRST. That's why parents who commonly remind their children 'don't spill the milk' or 'don't hurt yourself' find their kids to be increasingly klutzy. Rather, they should be using words like 'be careful' and 'hold on to that'.

IIRC there is a file that uses exclusively positive visualizations, suggestions about a toddler's toilet abilities, wetting freely and easily. I would add words to encourage good feelings when you wet, whether or not its intentional, and even moreso when you are able to keep your bladder sphincter completely relaxed while you wet.

Of course, you know many people wet the bed long past childhood. For them wetting is as easy as breathing. Sometimes they want to stay dry, but as soon as they fall asleep, they're soaked. Imagine how relaxing it would be, falling deep asleep and being so completely relaxed that your body just lets go and you sleep right through, waking in the morning, refreshed, comfortable, and very, very wet.

:) Remember, your potty training is very much a part of you. You need to learn a NEW way to use those abilities, rather than unlearning them.[/i]

[wohermiston]

Even if you respond to the idea of "losing control, it is more likely that you are internalizing it as "it is ok to pee right now" It is human nature to stay in control of things. Further, the urinary system is hard wired. up to about age 2 the brain plays no role. everything happens in the spinal cord. The external sphincter is not in play and the slightest push from the bladder muscles will cause urine flow. as you get older, the external sphincter takes on it's role as a normally tight muscle. you have to phyically relax it.
the internal bladder sphincter is controlled by the brain. But how is in my mind not well understood.

Do you really know how you pee? I don't.

sure we all get the urge, then the brain blocks the action until we are somewhere safe. then you must relax and go. But what really takes place. I contend that it is all somewhat of a mystery.
The ideal solution for many of us would be to return to the infant stage, that would be a true "no control" condition or automatic bladder. But this would seem impossible due to the hard wiring.
One thing I have found that may be effective to others is to accept that when you pee, you find it amazing and have know idea how it happens, it just happens. That it is very cool!
Since the very first urge you feel, is the same as the original spinal cord action in an infant, the perfection of this would be to pee the moment you feel that urge. But you need to pursuade the brain to "stay out of it!"

And I still think true bedwetting in an adult is just impossible because a whole part of the brain is dedicated to clamping the sphincters the moment you fall to sleep. I do not think hypnosis can undo harwired parts of the body.

[Ladon]

Its been shown that hypnosis can affect autonomic (hard-wired) functions, like heart rythym and eye muscle movements. Some good hypnotic subjects have been able to correct their myopathy (poor vision, not caused by a deformation of the eye) during age regression, since they regressed to a time before they over-worked their eye muscles. I'd like to find the research, but Bandler and Grinder suggested that it might be possible for some diabetic individuals to reverse the diabetes, by altering their body chemistry. I know its been researched in asian monks, the ability to alter body chemistry.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is: Involuntary muscles are still connected to the brain, you just have no conscious control over them. The subconscious certainly may have access to those functions. In the bladder, the internal urinary sphincter doesn't wait until 'its safe', it waits until the bladder is ready to empty. That's what causes urge incontinence, when the bladder detrusor contracts, and the internal urinary sphincter relaxes, and all thats left to hold the urine is the voluntary external sphincter, which isn't always enough.

And as for bedwetting, many adults continue to wet the bed occasionally (or frequently) for much of their lives. I don't see how anything is 'hard wired' to lock down the bladder while you sleep. That's why the 'pee dream' is a fairly universal experience. If you're convinced by the dream that its okay to pee right now, you might go through the same motions you would when awake, allowing yourself to wet the bed, because it wasn't real.

[demigraff]

I'd like to find the research, but Bandler and Grinder suggested that it might be possible for some diabetic individuals to reverse the diabetes, by altering their body chemistry.

I'll have to look into that. I tried it myself, with some success for a couple of weeks, but wasn't aware there'd been any other studies.

[DLinMSP]

I have been listening to several of the diaper files daily and they are definitely having an affect on me.

I started having nighttime wetting accidents last summer, I have Curse Bedwetting to thank for that. In October I started wearing diapers and plastic pants on a nightly basis thanks to Curse Night Diapers and Bedwetter Fear to Reality. I am very concerned that if I don't wear a diaper to bed I will wet my bed, couch or chair or wherever I'm sleeping. My night diaper is a Tranquility ATN and Comco plastic pants, a very good combination.

I moved my office to my home and I regularly listen to Diaper Dependence 2 and now I where diapers nearly all the time. My daytime diaper is a Tranquility Slimline and the Comco plastic pants.

Since listening to these and other files my reliance on diapers has grown from fun to a very strong need. I know I don't trance every time I listen but with the files on in the background they seem to have a subliminal effect on me. I don't wet involuntarily during the day and I don't force myself to wet. I just let it happen when the urge appears and think nothing of wetting my diaper during the day, no matter where I am.

Thanks to WMM for the opportunity to extend my enjoyment of wearing and using diapers and plastic pants.

[wohermiston]

just to follow up, here is a repeat of the info I found elsewhere on the net:

In the infant, urination/voiding/micturition is purely a local reflex centered in the lower portion of the spinal cord. In infants two years old and under, involuntary voiding occurs whenever the bladder is sufficiently full. This results in stretch receptors in the urinary bladder wall transmitting impulses to a special area in the spinal cord known as the sacral micturition center. The sacral micturition center responds by causing detrusor muscle contraction of the bladder.

Between the ages of 2 and 3 as the child's nerves, muscle and brain mature, a special area in the brain gradually develops. Simultaneously, the development of special nerve pathways to that center allows the child to detect a sensation of bladder fullness.

The next stage in the child's maturity occurs when the area in the lower part of the brain, known as the pontine micturition center, develops enough to coordinate sphincter relaxation during voiding.

During the last stage of development, the young child learns conscious bladder control , and during toilet training, develops the ability to inhibit the bladder center in the lower spine (back). Continence during sleep results from the unconscious inhibition of detrusor muscle contraction by an area in the brain known as the basal ganglia).

While I may have described the nitetime effect in error, not a clamping of the spincters, but rather "inhibition of detrusor muscle contraction by an area in the brain known as the basal ganglia" this would still appear to be a hardwired response. I know that is how it affects me personally. Certainly there are examples of adults who bedwet. The shy bladder group has a post that talks about holding your breath for a really extended period of time causes involuntary release of the bladder. This is confirmed in people with sleep apnea as well. I think hypnosis may be able to convince you to wake, wet and forget, but I am still doubtful that it can over take hardwired controls. Because if the article I quote from is correct, the detruser muscles are inhibited during sleep.

this was all started in response to the original poster who though positive reinforcment is better than negative. I am in full agreement with that.

[Ladon]

unconscious inhibition of detrusor muscle contraction

Okay, does that mean that the unconscious has the ability to stop inhibiting that contraction? :? It would seem that would make sense.

In many individuals who have sleep wetting problems, the natural release of Anti Diuretic Hormone isn't present or as strong as in 'normal' individuals. In these cases, their bladders are more likely to fill during the night, since their kidneys don't get the signal to stop working at daytime levels. Even if the detrusor contractions are 'inhibited', that doesn't mean they're eliminated. If the bladder is sufficiently full, and the individual is sufficiently asleep, the detrusor will contract involuntarily. Whether this causes a sudden waking 'gotta go' sensation, or a bed wetting incident, is up to the level of control in that individual.

Even so, could not the mind be trained to awaken the person in 'diaper training', let them wet, then fall asleep with amnesia for the event? That would be as close to nocturnal enuresis as you can get, they would have no memory of waking to wet, right?

[wohermiston]

at this point I think we are in agreement. But if the medical pages are correct, then the wake-wet-forget approach would be the only way to make this happen. But that is not the same thing as regressing behaviour back to automatic. That, I think, is an impossibility. So again, the only issue I was trying to express is the best language to persuade or convince the individual, without using negatives, or making them feel that they are without control. I, and the original poster tend to beleive that the mind will resist attempts at losing control. The commnds need to be persuasive, positive and recurrsive so as to reinforce the behaviour. the language is the hardest part. Those that want this really want it, so there is no need to be negative. just reinforce the wanting. I have had some good results with just suggesting that when the bladder lets go, you marvel at it in amazement and think to yourself that you have no idea how this is happening but that it is very cool.

[Ladon]

I believe it is possible to become so used to emptying ones bladder without hesitation, that it will be second nature even when asleep, but we can agree to disagree. One reason I feel it is possible: I used to lucid dream regularly, because I made a habit of checking my reality during my waking hours. In time, it became so natural, I began doing it in my sleep by habit, and found I was dreaming. It seems that it could work the same way. We are agreed on one point, that control cannot be returned to natural reflex, the same as an infant, but it can be 'close enough'.

Losing, by nature, is negative. Giving up, letting go, and even ignoring are much more positive. Returning to a natural incontinent state, remembering to forget about that urge and letting oneself be surprised by the results. Focus on how good it feels, suddenly becoming aware of the growing wetness... :)

I recently entered a new script in EMGs March contest. If he doesn't pick mine, I'll record it for WMM. I attempted to keep the images and verbiage very positive and light, feelings of babyhood and learning to "unfeel" something.

[LilJennie]

I am not sure that any of this means that it's physically impossible for an adult to relearn to wet like an infant. I think it just means that it's physically impossible for an infant younger than a certain age to be potty trained.

In the infant, urination/voiding/micturition is purely a local reflex centered in the lower portion of the spinal cord. In infants two years old and under, involuntary voiding occurs whenever the bladder is sufficiently full. This results in stretch receptors in the urinary bladder wall transmitting impulses to a special area in the spinal cord known as the sacral micturition center. The sacral micturition center responds by causing detrusor muscle contraction of the bladder.

OK, all this means is that in infants, the only working pathway is: stretch receptors -> sacral micturition center -> bladder detrusor muscles.

Between the ages of 2 and 3 as the child's nerves, muscle and brain mature, a special area in the brain gradually develops. Simultaneously, the development of special nerve pathways to that center allows the child to detect a sensation of bladder fullness.

The next stage in the child's maturity occurs when the area in the lower part of the brain, known as the pontine micturition center, develops enough to coordinate sphincter relaxation during voiding.

I'm assuming that the "special area in the brain" mentioned here is the pontine micturition center. It sounds like the new paths are stretch receptors -> mind, and pontine micturition center -> sphincter control muscles (controlled by the mind once the ability to do so develops). But according to the next paragraph, the sacral micturition center is still active at this point ...

During the last stage of development, the young child learns conscious bladder control , and during toilet training, develops the ability to inhibit the bladder center in the lower spine (back). Continence during sleep results from the unconscious inhibition of detrusor muscle contraction by an area in the brain known as the basal ganglia).

The sacral micturition center's reflexive control of the detrusor muscle must still be active at this point, or there would be no need to inhibit it. If the child has learned to do that, we have conscious mind -> detrusor muscles (possibly by way of the basal ganglia), and by this time we also probably have conscious mind -> pontine micturition center -> sphincter control muscles. When the child is asleep, this states that the unconscious mind can also inhibit that detrusor contraction reflex from the sacral micturition center: unconscious mind -> basal ganglia -> detrusor muscles.

So the pathways are now:

1. bladder stretch receptors -> sacral micturition center -> bladder detrusor muscles

2. bladder stretch receptors -> mind

3. mind -> pontine micturition center -> sphincter control muscles

4. mind -> basal ganglia -> bladder detrusor muscles (path 1 is still there, but can be overridden by this)

What I'm getting at is the idea that everything here leads back to either the conscious or unconscious mind. The detrusor contraction reflex doesn't seem to go away; it's just inhibited. So all that has to be done is to teach the mind (conscious and unconscious) not to inhibit the reflex. The mind has also learned to control the sphincters, but that behavior can also be changed. I don't think anything is "hardwired" other than the physical ability of the mind to control the sphincters and to override the detrusor reflex. Just because those nerves are in place and functioning, that doesn't mean the mind has to make use of them if it can accept that it doesn't need to, and relearn the original behavior of not doing so.

[wohermiston]

"I don't think anything is "hardwired" other than the physical ability of the mind to control the sphincters and to override the detrusor reflex. Just because those nerves are in place and functioning, that doesn't mean the mind has to make use of them if it can accept that it doesn't need to, and relearn the original behavior of not doing so."

with regards to this, if you search bedwetting solutiions online, you will usually find the following advice with regards to childeren: it is only a matter of time before the child will normally acheive night time continence. Why is this advice so common? I would suggest it is because of the last part of mind development already described. IE the child does nothing of his own free will to achieive this. It would suggest a basic genetic memory behaviour of the basil ganglia to suppress detrusor contractions when asleep. If that is the case, I see no way of changing that behaviour through hypnosis.

I come back to "wake-wet-forget" as a probable approach.