Ethical Issue

by **loony28** » June 7th, 2005, 9:35 am

:twisted: Well I have to tell you it would be unethical to try that without his permission. Not only could he lose his trust in you when you attempt to help him sleep but you could ruin your friendship with him. If you want to experiment you'll have to get his permission or you could create a hypnosis mp3 and send it in to EMG to post on this site. :twisted:

by **sandy82** » June 8th, 2005, 5:21 pm

I agree with you, loony.

TSD, what one wants most fervently is the very thing that one must judge most critically. In this case, your desire involves another person; his wishes and well-being have to be given great weight.

<<merely the thoughht of dominating him through my speech is enough to almost make me cream.>>
It's hard to imagine a better reason NOT to do what you contemplate. At the moment, your own judgment is temporarily impaired. As loony suggests, discuss the idea with your friend.

loony28 wrote::twisted: Well I have to tell you it would be unethical to try that without his permission. Not only could he lose his trust in you when you attempt to help him sleep but you could ruin your friendship with him. If you want to experiment you'll have to get his permission or you could create a hypnosis mp3 and send it in to EMG to post on this site. :twisted:

by **Linja** » June 9th, 2005, 6:06 am

I'm in agreeance with the others here.

What you're considering is making another human being do something against their will. Last time I checked slavery was illegal for good reason. The sad thing is that this person is your friend and you still want to dominate him. Think of reciprocity.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
How would you feel if you invested trust in somebody and they abused it, hurting you in the process, for their own means. Chances are you wouldn't feel very happy about it, you wouldn't want to cause such feelings in your friend would you?

The best option to take is to talk to him about it, if you're shy, talk to him about it while he's under, that way it's more of a harmless safeguard on your part. He's more likely to be honest, and he's more likely to take it in good manner if he's that relaxed already.

That aside though, I can understand where you're coming from. And so, if you do choose to go through with it, here's some advice.
Don't immediately order him to do things, chances are he'll be unable to move let alone obey such commands. First, make some helpful suggestions to your friend. While he's under suggest to him that he enjoys being hypnotised by you and that he'll want to continue doing it in the future.
If he doesn't ask you to do it again, ask him if he wants to.
If he does, then strengthen his enjoyment and depth of going under.
Then, after you've done that a few times and when he's ready, insert some more meaningful suggestions, like obedience to you.
Increase it along these lines, until your ability to put him under increases and he is becoming increasingly obedient. Then insert some triggers, or whatever you feel like. I'd start with an instant trance trigger, such as "sleep now" or something. Then work from there, as it'd save time.

Remember though, that if you do any of this, you could be legally liable, and more importantly, you could damage your friendship.

And also, if he doesn't want to do something, it's going to be harder to get him to do it, that's why you should work your way up slowly as I said. But I'd seriously advise against it. I'd talk to him first, while he's under. Who knows, maybe he gets off on this stuff too, you may be pleasantly suprised...

-Linja

by **missypuss** » June 11th, 2005, 11:09 am

Linja , having read the reply you posted I am thinking that ,whats the difference between making him obedient while hypnotised, and asking some well meaning questions while hypnotised, surely both are perhaps leading him in a way towards the same goal wether hes aware of it or not ??

by **bobjoe11** » June 11th, 2005, 11:21 am

very true...

I'm not into most of the stuff here, just a small part (some of the self-help files).. As someone who's looked deep into international ethics, that's only really allowed in very obscure parts of Africa.

2. It's one thing to actually do it to him w/o his permission
It's another thing to ask him and he says no and then do it (worse)
If you actually do it to him w/o permission, and he likes it... well, then, you have queer friends.
If you actually do it to him w/o permission, he does what you want him to do, then he attacks you- well, you earned it.

3. make a pact with him only to make him WANT to do things, not HAVE to do things (word suggestions like- you Want to not- You MUST or you HAVE TO). Even if you do it against his permission, it's not as horrific.

4. Evidently you're not a good friend if you want to dominate- go build a robot or something (don't take my advice the wrong way and have him listen to robottime.... I'll be pretty to'd with you then)

5.I agree with the others on this issue... and on another tangent, howsabout you listen to RobotTime and IM accept, then drop me a line on chat, will you (I swear upon every dead ancestor I have- even if someone does listen to that and IM accept and e-mail me or something, I'm not going to make ne1 do nething sexual or pornographic, or illegal- if you know me normally, then you can trust that, if not, then just don't do that)

6. Well, those are my opinions, take em as you will

by **Linja** » June 12th, 2005, 12:25 am

Missy Puss,

The difference in my mind is, that asking a question can cause minimal harm in comparrison to directly making somebody follow your commands.

-Linja

P.S, nice advice bobjoe11

by **missypuss** » June 12th, 2005, 6:03 am

surely Making someone do something while hypnotised & asking them leading questions while hypnotised to get the same result are one and the same thing ??? :? I know if he likes feeling hypnotised he may just like the suggestions his friend places in his mind but what if he doesnt....... a dilemma i think !!

by **sandy82** » June 14th, 2005, 1:01 am

Surely, force and suggestion are two different things.

For those who see no qualitative difference, then there's no dilemma. The answer is clear.

Do neither.

BTW, bobjoe11, a pleasure to read your post. You and Linja have both thought through the issues. Refreshing.

missypuss wrote:surely Making someone do something while hypnotised & asking them leading questions while hypnotised to get the same result are one and the same thing ??? :? I know if he likes feeling hypnotised he may just like the suggestions his friend places in his mind but what if he doesnt....... a dilemma i think !!

by **bobjoe11** » June 14th, 2005, 5:59 am

thx.... (actually, I only typed it up in about 5 minutes, but I suppose that a few years of thinking about my ethics will do it to :))

Sandy's right

Don't do either. it's as simple as that. Go change your interests to something more productive (did I just say that??)

by **Linja** » June 14th, 2005, 6:18 am

Thanks Sandy, I appreciate your kindness.

Missypuss, I'm sorry I don't quite follow your logic, explain to me why asking questions and forcing somebody to do something are one and the same? Regardless of whether the questions are leading, a question cannot make somebody do something. That's my opinion anyway.

-Linja

by **Jack** » June 14th, 2005, 2:49 pm

I think missypuss's logic is basically that by asking leading questions what you're doing is dangling a carrot in front of a horse to get it to move where you want it to go. Is that (un)ethical?

As far as I'm concerned, I would talk to my friend(my friends usually being the more open and daring-do types).. if I knew that friend wouldn't like it, I would seek my pleasure/entertainment elsewhere.

by **Linja** » June 15th, 2005, 2:42 am

Yeah, thanks Jack, that's helped me to understand much better. Now I can see where you're coming from Missypuss, if that is what you meant.

The two can recieve the same result, but in my mind, the difference is that (continuing the analogy of the donkey) the donkey makes the choice to go for the carrot, and while he may be decieved, it is better than having the carrot forced down his throat.

But when I said ask questions, I didn't mean for them to be leading, or suggestive. Just straight questions, like "would you enjoy being submissive to me?" or something like that, not using clever rhetoric or leading to make him do it under deception or something like that.

In that case, I believe that you're right, using clever questions to psychologically make somebody to do something (while harder) is just as bad, because while they do make the choice, they do so under deception (as the donkey does) and deception is of course unethical.

-Linja

by **Jack** » June 15th, 2005, 4:31 am

Linja wrote:But when I said ask questions, I didn't mean for them to be leading, or suggestive. Just straight questions, like "would you enjoy being submissive to me?" or something like that, not using clever rhetoric or leading to make him do it under deception or something like that.

That is a bit suggestive. Questions like "would you ENJOY BEING SUBMISSIVE to me?" are more leading than not. That's like asking someone if they've been raped and then saying "You will remember this now." It's not specific enough so they may respond by creating a false memory of being raped. A less leading question to ask would be something in the realm of "How would you feel about being submissive to another person?" and then following up with "How would you feel about being submissive to me?". If they respond favorably in the first case and the second I might proceed from there.

Linja wrote:In that case, I believe that you're right, using clever questions to psychologically make somebody to do something (while harder) is just as bad, because while they do make the choice, they do so under deception (as the donkey does) and deception is of course unethical.

Too bland of a statement.. bad for whom? how do you know?

by **Linja** » June 16th, 2005, 2:03 am

Yeah, I see that. Sorry, it was just a quick example. I see how the key words "enjoy being submissive to me" are pretty leading, next time I'll use more clarification on my example.

In answer to your questions Jack,
it would be bad for the person being decieved, and I am yet to be aware of a code of ethics that doesn't state deception as unethical. (at least codes applying to humans)

-Linja

by **Jack** » June 16th, 2005, 4:36 am

Considering that people do exactly that(ask leading questions) every day.. I see no difference. Especially when you take into account that people go in and out of trance and other more or less conscious states throughout the day. Any time someone asks you "Hey do you want to go do something?" That is a leading questions because the presuppositions of that sentence are leading a person towards wanting to go to the movies.

by **Linja** » June 19th, 2005, 3:46 am

Then howcome I get slapped so much? lol.

Nice point though, I guess all questions are leading in a way. Guess I better watch what I ask.

-Linja

by **missypuss** » June 19th, 2005, 8:08 am

Yes its the leading questions thingy that I was confused about Im afraid , take someone who is into hypnosis and the things they feel it does for them .... ie listening to files , beleiving they are becoming more submissive from using them .... then take using hypnosis to relax sum 1 wth asleep probs , who prhps hs nva thght of hypnosis as a tool for getting a sexual kick...... thats kinda where my thread ws tkng me... he may love being sent to sleep in a lovely hypnotic trance but srly if u sgst that any thing else good is bcos of this then ethically u r using the hypnosis to plant a beleif in him which he may not ever in a million yrs have thought of ????? :roll:

by **Jack** » June 19th, 2005, 9:46 am

missypuss wrote:Yes its the leading questions thingy that I was confused about Im afraid , take someone who is into hypnosis and the things they feel it does for them .... ie listening to files , beleiving they are becoming more submissive from using them .... then take using hypnosis to relax sum 1 wth asleep probs , who prhps hs nva thght of hypnosis as a tool for getting a sexual kick...... thats kinda where my thread ws tkng me... he may love being sent to sleep in a lovely hypnotic trance but srly if u sgst that any thing else good is bcos of this then ethically u r using the hypnosis to plant a beleif in him which he may not ever in a million yrs have thought of ????? :roll:

That's a little unclear..
Give me a specific example of what you're writing about. And, a specific question, if you please.

by **missypuss** » June 19th, 2005, 12:13 pm

Ok I am the guy who is being relaxed into sleep by my mate; as I have sleep probs; which he says he can aid me with by hypnotising me ......I have never had a sexual feeling for the guy who is hypnotising me to aid me in my sleep problem yet I find the whole hypnosis thin strangely erotic altho never in a milliion years would I want to allow my male friend to use this to achieve any thing other than aiding me to sleep .... to mthink that one day while sending me under into a light trance my friend asked me some leading questions which may be to his advantage as he fabcies fucking me while Im deep and feeling soooo good would to my mind be a kinda advantage taking method to employ ?? Doing this to me , who enjoys the whole hypnotise me and take control kinda thing would be ok cos Id be allowing the hypnosis to happen ; knowing full well where it was going to go ??? That enough of n eg 4 u ?? :twisted:

by **Jack** » June 19th, 2005, 8:05 pm

Does the guy being hypnotized get to sleep peacefully at night?
Does having sex with the other guy cause him harm in some way?(he's currently in a relationship with someone else and this negatively effects the relationship[break up], even though the guy really wants to be with this woman, have kids, etc)
If the answer to the first one is yes, and the answer to the second is no, then I don't personally see any problem with it, so long as everyone involved is happier than when they entered the situation. If they are both no or both yes, then it's not what I would consider an ideal situation and should be altered in some manner. Although, I'm the person that hypnotizes people at random, without notice, everywhere I go.

by **missypuss** » June 20th, 2005, 1:48 am

Argument won! ( I Think Jack .. feelin slightly cofused!!) what the hell , knock urself out & make him submit and obey , submit and obey ........... :wink:

Ethical Issue

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