Semi-Off topic: Why is there no market for masculization?

[guyincognito88]

I'm really struck by just how popular feminization is. To be honest, I don't really understand how/why guys who aren't effeminate would strive to be that way. I'm not judging, just don't really get it, but I digress.

What really has me curious, is why there seems to be no parallel female-to-male (or feminine male to masculine male) culture. Is it because women in our society are now much freer to act like males in public? is it simply because there are far more men on this and similar sites to begin with?

Any input?

[Route42]

There have probably been studies or surveys or something regarding the big difference in number between M2F and F2m. I've done quite a bit of reading over the years on the transgender community and most of that has been focused on the M2F bit. Still, even if I haven't seen the topic directly addressed, there are a few thoughts that come to mind.

1. Without thinking too deeply about it, off hand I know of two kinds of transexuals: those who actually feel like females trapped in a male body, and those who get a fetish-esque kick from it. While not a hard and steady rule, the common perception is that men are more sexual and in more extreme ways than a lot of women.

2. Probably more accurate than point 1 is just the raw biology of it. Some of the best reasons I have seen for how someone's gender can be out of line with their body arises in the womb. Apparently everyone starts off as female in the womb, then at a really early state either a certain hormone is introduce to kick the fetus in a male direction, or the hormone is not introduced... thus a female fetus. As such, if something goes wrong with the hormone process, you might end up with an innersexed baby: and while sometimes this is physical (being born with both sets of genitals, for example), I wouldn't be surprised if this is often the result of many of those in the M2F community. Since the females don't have this complication in the womb it would not play a factor in gender.

So yeah, fetish and biology. The keys to understanding M2Fs everywhere.

[SDoll]

Is it because women in our society are now much freer to act like males in public?

It isn't so much they can act "male", it's that they can act however they want. While women have gained more freedom for their gender, men are still in a small grey box. What really gets to me are clothes. Women are free to dress however they want. But if a man so much as puts on a skirt, all of a sudden he's gay and needs to be laughed at.

You also notice M2F more than F2M because it's generally eaiser for F2Ms to pass.

Masculization is also eaiser to create yourself. Since sadly people have made it such a stereotype.

[trapper_jock_mcintyre]

Ah -- it is a great undiscovered territory that in its own way can be a lot of fun. It just that we haven't gone there yet.

Yes, admittedly females can dress somewhat more male than males can dress somewhat more female -- and get away with it.

BUT -- there are still lines that aren't crossed -- or crossdressed as it were!

What I propose is a hypnosis file that makes a female hate her bras and panties and only want to to wear men's underwear and undershirts -- and just the white fly-front briefs types -- like jockey y-fronts. Then to push it even further, to take it to wear she wants to -- in fact feels the need to -- wear that which is as masculine to men as a bra is to feminine to women -- a jockstrap. Admit it -- if a woman started wearing a jockstrap, she'd get as grief as a guy in panties!

That said, it can be taken to the level of transformation -- seeing her breast flatten and becoming a flat male chest -- her clit growing into a cock and her balls dropping.

I personally like the idea of then making her into a gay guy and making her jack off her cock while sucking cock.

It can (and should) be taken to a whole area that has never been explored!

Somebody has to do this! I really would love to see some file on it.

On way I can imagine it as a file for the 'evil' theme -- taking away her tits and pussy and making her into a guy, because she's a sleaze.

Trap

[User517]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and although may offend some, this is atleast something I've noticed, so please bear with me.

Some of the issue is not about biology, or what women can do that men can't, but also about power. From what I've noticed, most methods of feminization often involve either the person giving up their power to someone they see as being dominant over them, or having that power taken away from them. This is a common theme in hypnosis, fetish services, and even upbringing. Meanwhile, methods of masculinization often focus on empowering the person to be more confident, capable, and assertive. In society, being positive and assertive are qualities which are typically revered, while being negative and passive are qualities which are to be avoided or changed. Much in line with the previous comment, that masculinity is something which is easier to do on your own, it is also something which can be done more openly and is likely to be supported by others. Meanwhile, trying to be more feminine often causes confusion, hostility, and tends to not be something which is generally supported by others.

As this translates into hypnosis, feminization is likely easier to achieve any significant results with. With hypnosis, you often have to be in a relaxed, passive state, and willing to give trust and authority to someone else. By going into a trance, you are, in a sense, already doing those things which are being reinforced for feminization, making it easier for other suggestions to take hold. In contrast, masculinization would likely require suggestions toward self-confidence, and self-reliance, which may end up conflicting slightly with maintaining the trance and forcing re-use. Phrases like "you cannot stop this from happening", or "you must do as I say", or even "you will find the urge to listen to this file more and more, and you must listen to this file more and more" would likely need to be changed to "you want this to happen", "you have put your trust in me, and trust my words", "you understand that this file is what can make you the person you want to be, you will choose to listen to this file every time you get a chance". Or something to that effect. A choice of language which places more power on the listener, and encourages them to make decisions which lead to continued use.

Atleast, this is my take on it. But I really don't know much on the subject, being, for all intensive purposes, an outsider, but it is what I've come to notice.

[trapper_jock_mcintyre]

I agree with some of what user517 says, but not totally. I will comment specifically in another post as I am pressed for time right now .. but ...

I really feel that this is an area that MUST be explored. That is why I have created a group at hypno-fetish to explore it. I am currently working on a file that will give a female a desire to/ the need to wear men's underwear. Coupled with that will be the feeling that the they have a penis and testicles.

I think it can also make a great punishment tool in as much as the fact that females generally love their soft silky feminine things, so it would be humiliating to have them taken away and replace by what some may see as dull male things.

Finally, I am a female who gets off on this and enjoys it, and while I haven't been hypnotized to be masculine, I have used it in and had it done to me in sex play. There are females out there who enjoy it and men who enjoy doing it t o females. For females it allows them a glimpse to the other, somewhat forbidden, side. For male, it allows them to safely explore any gay feeling they have as the partner is female, bt dressed as and acting as male.

Trap

[trapper_jock_mcintyre]

The more I read User517's comments, the more I agree with them.

The thing that is so distressing to me is that masculinization isn't even tried. That's why IO am so happy that this topic is being discsused and that there is a separate section at hypno-fetish for it. Although, one need only look at the replies here and the the groups at hypno-fetish to see that feminization far out numbers masculinization.

Now here is where I might offend. I have heard this said so many times from males as they argue about masculinization -- Ooooh! Why would anyone want to be to male! Why would anyone want to wear those ugly things!

Its almost a self hate thing to my ears. I say -- why not! Gender stuff is/ can be just as much fun for those of us born female as it is for males. It just has to be tried.

I recall the first time I tried on a jockstrap. Gawd -- the thrill that coursed through me was incredible cause it was so forbidden.

I do feel that that feminization of males is so yesterday. Masculinization of females is the cutting-edge!

All I'm saying is -- it needs to be tried -- you might like it!

Trap

[User517]

I think some differentiation might be needed here between masculinization, as a polar opposite to femininization, as a long term change as part of a F2M transition, and trying to force male mannerisms, dress, or perceptions for the purposes of sexplay or entertainment.

In the case of sexplay or entertainment, there is a lesser need to encourage the same kind of male mindset so components dealing with submission, humiliation, and loss of power could be used to make the suggestions take hold. You could likely mix these with statements which reflect common female self doubts, like not being good looking, not being clean, not being able to express themselves emotionally, not being able to connect with female friends. In a sense, maintain the same kind of submissive statements, but tailor the content to being something of a punishment for not being good enough as a woman.

It would still likely have to be something that is voluntary, or not so extreme that the listener has permanent feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy, but might be more the kinda thing you're talking about. You kinda have to be careful with this kind of thing though. A man being abused or made inferior is entertainment, a woman on the other hand, regardless of how equal thinking you happen to be, rarely is. With men, it's usually their choice to be abused, with women, it's often something they are not given the choice about. I certainly hope that there aren't many tists out there who would want their sessions to be used to subjugate an unwilling partner. So some consideration of usage should probably be expressed.

I would be tempted to think that one way to approach this, atleast initially, would be to try and create a file that can be used by either sex to encourage more masculine behavior and attire and discourage feminine ones. Such as suggesting that they can only be comfortable while wearing pants, must try to cover up as much of their chest, arms, and legs as possible, will get an intolerable itching sensation for a few hours if they try to shave their chest, arms, legs, underarms, or groin, will purchase and wear only boxer style underwear, or other flap front underwear, cannot stand to have any cosmetics or hair products used on them, and must use only normal shampoo and soap. Something like that could be effective on women, metrosexual males, even feminized males if mentions were taken to make them disregard any previous suggestions to feminize themselves, and acknowledge that they were really born male, and are male. At the very least, it might provide some feedback to work from in tailoring more specific masculinization suggestions.

[trapper_jock_mcintyre]

User517 -- Sorry to have cut your post up a bit but I didn't want o quote it en masse.

I think some differentiation might be needed here between masculinization, as a polar opposite to femininization, as a long term change as part of a F2M transition, and trying to force male mannerisms, dress, or perceptions for the purposes of sexplay or entertainment.

I agree. The FTM transsexual is a whole much more serious thing, and not, IMHO, to be trivialized. I'm going for the sexplay aspect.

In the case of sexplay or entertainment, there is a lesser need to encourage the same kind of male mindset so components dealing with submission, humiliation, and loss of power could be used to make the suggestions take hold. .... something of a punishment for not being good enough as a woman.

As far as the punishment angle, I'd only go for it as punishment for doing this like being vain or spending too much on panties and dresses (running up a credit card, etc). This is as a opposed to 'not being good enough as a woman'. That aspect (not being good enough) is one thing that I have never understood in feminization -- in that case not being good enough to be a man.

It would still likely have to be something that is voluntary, .... I certainly hope that there aren't many tists out there who would want their sessions to be used to subjugate an unwilling partner.

Yes -- I want to see it as voluntary -- an exploration of the other side.

I would be tempted to think that one way to approach this, atleast initially, would be to try and create a file that can be used by either sex to encourage more masculine behavior and attire and discourage feminine ones. ... Something like that could be effective on women, metrosexual males, even feminized males ...

I do disagree with you here. I only seeing it as being s file for females. I see no 'fun' in masculinizing a metro-sexual or femme male, as their biology/ anatomy gives it all away. Ah, but to have a female acting as a male -- having her visualize a penis and testicles between her legs, having her still be female, yet act male .. I find that gender incongruity to be quite erotic. That is my goal.

Oh -- and on boxer short -- won't work -- females already wear them - so they are unisex. Boxer breifs on the other hand, with a fly in the front are workable.

Trap

[User517]

I would be tempted to think that one way to approach this, atleast initially, would be to try and create a file that can be used by either sex to encourage more masculine behavior and attire and discourage feminine ones. ... Something like that could be effective on women, metrosexual males, even feminized males ...

I do disagree with you here. I only seeing it as being s file for females. I see no 'fun' in masculinizing a metro-sexual or femme male, as their biology/ anatomy gives it all away. Ah, but to have a female acting as a male -- having her visualize a penis and testicles between her legs, having her still be female, yet act male .. I find that gender incongruity to be quite erotic. That is my goal.

Oh -- and on boxer short -- won't work -- females already wear them - so they are unisex. Boxer breifs on the other hand, with a fly in the front are workable.

Trap

Well, it's not as fun, or useful, but I believe it would allow for a larger test audience to help get the language and methods nailed down. I'm well aware that there are female boxer style types of underwear, but the primary intention is to make them avoid anything which might be specifically skimpy, costly, or feminine, and not as an end all "has to be male underwear" kind of suggestion. It's not particularly fun, but might still be a decent start to work from when making more interesting files.

As far as the punishment angle, I'd only go for it as punishment for doing this like being vain or spending too much on panties and dresses (running up a credit card, etc). This is as a opposed to 'not being good enough as a woman'. That aspect (not being good enough) is one thing that I have never understood in feminization -- in that case not being good enough to be a man.

I believe the basis for this kind of theme deals with trying to degrade or humiliate the listener in thinking that they are inferior at being their gender. Some of this may have an effect, atleast in males since this may awaken some feelings of awkwardness as a child/adolescent if they were called a "girl" for not being good at sports or for showing any emotion/tears when hurt. In retrospect, this method probably wouldn't be too effective in the opposite case since girls don't normally call each other "boyish" as an insult, or to suggest that the person is behaving in a way that is not idealized for their gender, and a way that has negative connotations. Atleast this is my impression as to why this is so widely used in feminization methods. It's really just more of that stuff with taking away power.

[tuarwen87]

I've been looking for a small file - something thats short term, like an hour, that just makes me feel like I have something down there.
Curiosity.

[Alien4420]

I agree with Route42. Those who are biologically transgendered, men or women born in the wrong body, don't for the most part need or want hypnosis. They know from an early age that their body doesn't match their brain, are desperate to change, and do the moment they get the chance. And their behaviors and desires are naturally feminine.

Which leaves the second category, those of us who get a kick out of feminization for sexual reasons. Or of being changed or dominated or humiliated. Or those like someone who just posted who aren't initially into feminization but listen to these files and develop a paraphelia as a result. We listen because the idea turns us on, or maybe if we're already inclined that way because we want help overcoming the social pressure that keeps us from being feminine. Women have paraphelias too, but they seem to play a stronger role in the male sex drive than they do in the female one.

[Kenn]

I agree with Route42. Those who are biologically transgendered, men or women born in the wrong body, don't for the most part need or want hypnosis. They know from an early age that their body doesn't match their brain, are desperate to change, and do the moment they get the chance. And their behaviors and desires are naturally feminine.

Yes and no. While they don't want/need hypnosis to feel they should be the other gender, it's not uncommon for them to use it to help them with their mannerisms, behaivor, etc. Basically, hypnosis can help them pass as the other gender, and behave like it more naturally.

[Alien4420]

Makes sense. I stand corrected.