If you believe in magic...

[makidas]

you might want to check thess links out. Also this would be a good place to post any good metaphysical links that you might come across that have to do with the subject matter.

http://www.spellsofmagic.com/scrolls/spell_list.html
http://geocities.com/primaelgen/

[BobbyS]

My God, who actually does this stuff?

[makidas]

Hey, hey, hey, don't knock it until you've tried it. I'm not making any claims here but, hypnosis can make men grow breasts and such, why not magic. Hypnosis can be looked at as a form of magic too.

[TabbyCat]

But it's not. Magic may be a form of hypnosis however, but not the other way around.

[makidas]

Nope, you got it backwards, hypnosis is considered by many to be a form of magic, ever notice why you feel so floaty? It's because you're not really in your physical body.

[BobbyS]

No, you feel all floaty because you're so deep, you're not even focusing on your body's sensations anymore i.e. your limbs have gone to sleep but your brain hasn't.

[makidas]

Ok, I'm not going to argue over something so petty, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. If you want to check out some links that may help you with your transformation, fine, if not, that's fine too. Notice the title of this thread, IF you believe in magic.

[VeryGnawty]

Interesting. Some of that energy-based stuff is similar to some of the methods I use.

[tarantulaman1000]

I'm sorry, but this is somewhat exasperating. Hypnosis is magic in the same way that a caveman would call a TV magic, it's an understood psychological phenomenon, not magic. I for one do not believe in anything supernatural, but you can believe what you like, just think about not calling an understood phenomenon "magic".

[makidas]

You fool, you limit the possibilities to what you see. Again, I'm not going to get into a debate, believe what you want. If you really want to know why I know why you feel floaty, I have ventured into the astral realm and watched as a friend went under with a wmm file, and you DO come out of your body while in trance.

[tarantulaman1000]

I know you don't want to argue, but calling me a fool for not venturing into the astral realm sounds like something a hotline psychic would say. I think you don't limit what you think you can see enough. I don't believe in magic or astral projection for the same reason I don't believe in god, they're really, really, astronomically unlikely. I try to be someone who has something of a handle on probability and logic, and nothing that I've observed has seemed to be "magic" in the conventional sense. I'm sure if I really reached out, I could imagine someone "leaving their body" but that's all I'd be doing, imagining.

[VeryGnawty]

Magic....logic....these are just different approaches to the same phenomena. The only difference is your perception of it.

As far as placing limits on yourself....

The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.

[loony28]

:twisted: I believe in magic. I have witnessed things that can't be explained by logic and the closed mind. I think it's foolish to have a closed mind. tarantulaman1000, have you ever lost something and searched for it but come up empty handed and then a few minutes later or longer it reappears in a spot you've looked in? I've had it happen to me before. I had a pager and one night I was downstairs in my basement getting some laundry. I had my pager on me and turned on, the sound was also on. Well when I got upstairs I noticed that my pager was missing and we looked all over for it; upstairs, downstairs, outside, and in our vehicles. We even tried paging it so we could hear where it was. All to no avail. A couple of days pass and my dad was doing some laundry when he heard my pager going off. It was right on the floor in plain sight. It gets a bit stranger. When I went to get it I noticed that not one of our attempts at paging it was on it but there were others after that. They were recieved a couple days after it disappeared. Now tell me how that logically happens. Don't say we overlooked it or put in the wrong number. I await your explaination. :twisted:

[Downward]

This may sound a bit "Crazy" ,but I was toying around with a ouija board when I was 16 years old ,and ever since then I feel like i've been being watched when no one is around. Then after I did hypnosis(EMG -Enter Trance,and a custom regression file I made by myself), the presence -As a form- would show up in my mind, sort of how you get an image flashed throughout your mind that you dont see. I only was able to remember portions of my first two lives clearly 1)I was a dark diety of some sort that got killed somehow. 2)I was an Amazon Queen. Though I don't know if I should connect both together, what i gather is that the ones that ended my diety form are watching me,or some entity is interested me.

Then again i've had reoccuring dreams of ruling over the shadow people, and the mention of the shadow people causes chills throughout my body, my mind hurts like something is blocked and I feel like something is watching over me.I start to fantasize about an apocalypse, and I feel pleasure. Not to mention when I spellcast I can feel that presence as well.

Not to mention I came upon this website a couple weeks after casting a spell.

[tarantulaman1000]

Loony, yours is hardly a compelling case. First, it's a mysterious circumstance but let me give you a possible solution. The pager gets dropped onto a surface in the room from your pocket, jostling the device so that it stops working, a hand brushes it later but it isn't noticed. Oddly enough, this slight brush causes it to work again, it recieves some calls, but nobody hears it, someone then knocks it to the floor and doesn't notice. Your dad hears it a little later on. That was a pretty unlikely scenario, I would call it very unlikely, but it's a hell of a lot more likely than a fold in space time opening up, swallowing your pager, and spitting it out on the floor. There are a thousand scenarios like mine and among all of those you picked the (as far as humanity knows) impossible ones, what a ridiculous thing to do. I consider the ideas of others, it's key to getting anywhere in politics, my desired destination, but when you come at me with wild speculation, spit out cute little proverbs involving umbrellas (honestly, umbrellas? I can think of more than five sayings that have umbrellas somewhere in them) and stories about dreams of an Amazon queen in response, you fail to make any bold steps towards public, or even any understanding of your beliefs. I'll listen to your views on gay rights, affirmative action, or welfare reform, but until you get serious, get your astrology off of my nice clean shoes.

[BobbyS]

I think it's very important to remember that the logic side is not baiting the magic side or vice versa. All we have are two seperate opposed arguments. It's important to debate, but not get angry over this.

[loadedkaos]

I think people should do what works if they use the occult and find that it enriches their lifes then they should keep doing it. If they would feel silly doing such things then why bother. I'm not going to go into a big argument about why I think the occult works. Why would I? Those who have practiced know the answer for them selves.

[tarantulaman1000]

Loadedkaos, you're somewhat correct, but you have a lot to gain by convincing people that your faith is correct. When you have a certain critical mass, your faith moves into the mainstream, keeping people from thinking of you as wackos. Right now, you're a cult, nobody respects a cult. You have a lot to gain when you can safely say, I believe in magic, a great amount is gained for you. The reason Catholics can say they're Catholic is because they have the critcal mass, you don't, so if you gain credibilty from one person at a time, eventually being a witch will be normal and accepted.

[jeremiah]

Kinda wierd.

[loadedkaos]

I deleted my last post because I wasn't sure what we could or could not talk about theologically, but I reread emg's post in idle chatter and it looks like we are ok as long as we don't talk about morality which isn't what this discussion is about, neither is it about wether occultist ought to convince other people that their faith is correct. Which is an interesting topic in itself but I think feminization is the wrong place to continue this.

[primaelgen]

Ha,

I finally find out where the traffic is coming from, and it came from this flame of a thread. That's pretty funny. :-)

To address the issue of magic or hypnosis ... I wrote those techniques in the language of magic and occult because there were a lot of people who understand that language and don't understand the language of hypnosis, and there seemed to be a big demand for it. There are also certain concepts that can be expressed in an esoteric language that more "mainstream" hypnosis does not (yet). For example, in order to increase the power and effectiveness of a hypnotic trance, you need to be able to relax to the point of no-mind -- that is, no verbal mind. Yet it is that verbal mind that understands the words used in a hypnotic script. Additionally, each word used in a dream (trance) state can be amplified. The word chosen carries connotations and weight from the social collective that makes some words more effective than others. Finally, you can use a brute-force method to amplify the effect of the word themselves by pumping it full of energy... the same way effective speakers can emphasize the "weight" of a word without speaking any louder. In hypnosis, this particular concept is given a vague treatment with the idea of "tonality", however, it is an easy concept to understand in the magical language.

I'd like to point out -- Richard Bandler and John Grinder of NLP fame came to a falling out because Bandler persued the use of magical language and Grinder didn't. Both were students of Erickson.

The person who said that someone who has a lot to gain from being able to say outright that they are X, Y, or Z ... that is very true. I had half an essay written about about the power of social roles ... I think I need to write more on that. As a preview ... while you can gain a lot from being able to clearly, with impeccability and integrity say, "I am a woman" or "Magic works", or "Magic doesn't work, hypnosis does" ... there's something more interesting when you are able to slip in *between* two paradoxical, contradictory social pressures. In the language of magic, it creates a sort of a rift. In the language of hypnosis, your verbal mind unable to comprehend the logical contradiction stops functioning and puts you immediately into a trance state.

In other words, it gets more interesting if you can hold both "magic works, hypnosis is merely magic" and "hypnosis works, and magic is a load of tripe" in your head at the same time.

Think with that.

PrimaelGen Project

[MikeWulf]

Absurd! Have you got any magical abilities that you can actually prove to someone? Do you believe someone out there has this ability? Well think again. There is a man out there that has screened thousands apon thousands of people who have claimed some extraordinary ability. From magicians (or wiccas or witches or other bullshit...More on that later) to diviners and psychics and the likes. And guess what!? Not a single one has given a shred of proof that they can do such things! Why would so many people try though? Because this man is offering a million dollars to anyone who can do it! Explain, knowing full well that someone does not pass up easy money no matter what their beliefs, how not a single person has claimed this money even though you say magic is real?

On a different note...When you fall asleep your mind goes into very distinct states. These states are given the levels alpha, beta, etc. They know of these states because sleep is understood, without a doubt. They have dont brain scans and tests for ever and ever. Now, is this magic? Is sleep magic? Answer me that and I will ruin your shit till the cows come home...Go ahead. I dare you.

Damn it! I also have to do a pre-emptive strike. If you give me this 'I just follow my beliefs because I know they are right' bullshit, I will take you as a fool and so will any other logical (read: not stupid) person will as well.

Damn, I shouldn't ramble so.

[makidas]

Just so ya know, sleep is not fully understood. Believe in magic or don't, notice the title of this thread, and I would love to meet the guy giving a million dollars away.

[loadedkaos]

I find it odd that skeptics seem like religious zealots now a days but instead of trying to save people's souls through compassionate means they are trying to keep people from being gullible by calling them stupid. primaelgen I agree with your theories on the relationship between the no-mind state of a magician and the trance state of a hypnotee. If I'm reading correctly. I find alot of the poetic prose in prayers and spells work well for symbolic reasons.

However I still don't think it is important for anyone to be able to prove anything to any one else not because I think it's impossible. But a skeptic as I've stated before is involved in a heavily over zealous tradition and thus creates a bias and thus is the wrench in the gears. The motus operandi for the occult to work is for faith, it's really hard to do by going through the motions in fact it's impossible. Although I don't think their is anything else wrong with the skeptic point of view. As I've stated before I stradle both the point of view of the skeptic and magician. Somethings I don't think can really happen, such as levitation or telekinises but far be it from me to tell someone they cant maybe they know something I don't.

[MikeWulf]

It's not about trying to stop people from doing it because we have some sort of skeptic veiw. It's because we have already tried and failed to produce any evidence to the side of the occult actually being worth it's salt.

To that person who said they want to meet the million dollar man, you can still meet him. Infact, since you are sure of winning this money, you should have no problem taking out a loan to travel there. Huh?

[makidas]

Show me the research that says magic is bullshit and I'll show you a nice bridge I have for sale. I'd like a source for the supposed guy giving away a million dollars too.

[loadedkaos]

Sorry MikeWulf I was simplifying things because I was in a rush. However you did suggest what I think is more of the norm, however I think magick doesn't work for most people because of two reason's: Lust of results and lack faith. Lust of results is very similar to the people who get anxious about being hypnotized so instead of allowing themselves to just be hypnotized, they sit there and think is it working. Which is one of the reasons why I would agree with any suggestion that hypnosis and magic have similar traits and may indeed be able to go hand in hand.

[sandy82]

It's not about trying to stop people from doing it because we have some sort of skeptic veiw. It's because we have already tried and failed to produce any evidence to the side of the occult actually being worth it's salt.

To that person who said they want to meet the million dollar man, you can still meet him. Infact, since you are sure of winning this money, you should have no problem taking out a loan to travel there. Huh?

Damn it! I also have to do a pre-emptive strike. If you give me this 'I just follow my beliefs because I know they are right' bullshit, I will take you as a fool and so will any other logical (read: not stupid) person will as well.

Damn, I shouldn't ramble so.

Yup.

I think there's a broad range of magic that exists...and that we can all agree on it. In addition, a million bucks is chicken feed.

I'm talking about subjective magic. The obvious (several readers get off on the word "obvious") fact is that a majority of the American people are true believers.

1. We went into Iraq because the place was full of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. Poof! They disappeared.

2. We were to be greeted with flowers and rose water. They disappeared, too.

3. As recently as January, we had a sacred mission to spread western democracy to the four corners of the earth. Then the poll results started to head south, and--presto!--we backed culturally-based democracy. Out of nowhere appeared ayatollahs. The magic is that the American public can be made to believe that ayatollahs support majority rule and women's rights.

4. The public was outraged last November about same-sex marriages. After the first Tuesday in the month, nothing more was heard of this gargantuan issue. Karl "The Sorcerer" Rove faded into his cubicle, and the sorcerer's apprentice went back to bicycle-riding. All those same-sex marriages... threatening the very life blood of the Republic....disappeared.

5. We now have tax-exempt savings accounts for health, education, retirement, and u-name-it. People like these things, but they have no money to put in them. But it's the magic of the account, not the contents, that makes people feel good about themselves.

Magic is real. Make no mistake about it. Logic has nothing to do with it. The savings rate of the American public has dropped to zero, and the price of gasoline is up to three bucks...and people continue to buy SUVs because a magic potion convinced them that they need DVD players/screens for the second and third rows of their cruising battleships. And we've just passed a near-$300 billion highway bill to make more room for these vessels.

What else but magic could turn a one-time insect exterminator into the most influential member of the U.S. House? Only magic could make a terrified guy who says that he used to "motor about Nashville with mummy" into the Senate Majority Leader.

Make no mistake about it. Magic makes this country work. If you can make people believe that inflation is based on a market basket that doesn't include food and fuel, I'll show you a wizard the likes of whom never appeared in legends and fables. It's called the "core inflation rate" but, without food and fuel, it's really the measurement suitable only for anorexic shut-ins.

What would an amateur like Merlin do in today's world?

I'm all for magic. The old-fashioned kind. The practitioners didn't get rich. And nine billion dollars in cash didn't disappear from a newly born "democracy" in less than a year. Who wants to meet some has-been with only a million? I bet any self-respecting Halliburton janitor has at least two or three.

[makidas]

I will ruin your shit till the cows come home...Go ahead. I dare you.

We're waiting....

[MikeWulf]

All that shit happened because America is stupid.
No-one has said sleep is magic.
A million dollars is a very comfortable sum of money.

[sandy82]

Whatever you say, Mike,

Whatever you say,

All that shit happened because America is stupid.
No-one has said sleep is magic.
A million dollars is a very comfortable sum of money.

[GrimIronMan]

Mike, this post makes it at least three posts you've made that seem to insult other members. Luckily makidas is a great member who can keep himself under control. Others I'm sure would love to strangle you. Seriously, this is really getting annoying. On topic, I, as Mike knows, believe in the supernatural such as psychic powers and magic. These sound fun to do some time.

[sandy82]

GIM, thanks for offering to be referee for Mike. It's a nice gesture, but unnecessary. Let Mike be himself. He seems to be doing a good job of being himself.

Frankly, in the last four months I have found several other posts more annoying than anything Mike has said. Besides, I still want to know what the following means:

I will ruin your shit till the cows come home...

Nine Anglo-Saxonisms, and only one mot de grenouille...but "ruin" has been used in English since before 1375. The sentence shows linguistic talent.

Mike, this post makes it at least three posts you've made that seem to insult other members. Luckily makidas is a great member who can keep himself under control. Others I'm sure would love to strangle you. Seriously, this is really getting annoying. On topic, I, as Mike knows, believe in the supernatural such as psychic powers and magic. These sound fun to do some time.

[makidas]

No-one has said sleep is magic.

Sleep is magic.

[Jerm]

I just follow my beliefs because I know they are right.


:lol:

[primaelgen]

Absurd! Have you got any magical abilities that you can actually prove to someone? Do you believe someone out there has this ability? Well think again. There is a man out there that has screened thousands apon thousands of people who have claimed some extraordinary ability. From magicians (or wiccas or witches or other bullshit...More on that later) to diviners and psychics and the likes. And guess what!? Not a single one has given a shred of proof that they can do such things! Why would so many people try though? Because this man is offering a million dollars to anyone who can do it! Explain, knowing full well that someone does not pass up easy money no matter what their beliefs, how not a single person has claimed this money even though you say magic is real?

I love it when people cite the Randi Foundation. It's like hearing a crowd of football fans, "Go Randi! Go Randi!" To a person, I have yet to find a Randi fanatic that does not say that because no one has won the money, magic is therefore not real. It's as if they are unquestioningly parroting James Randi, without a single, original thought in in their head. Sounds like a logical fallacy to me. Surprising, for fanatical rationalists, no?

:o

On a different note...When you fall asleep your mind goes into very distinct states. These states are given the levels alpha, beta, etc. They know of these states because sleep is understood, without a doubt. They have dont brain scans and tests for ever and ever. Now, is this magic? Is sleep magic? Answer me that and I will ruin your shit till the cows come home...Go ahead. I dare you.

Sleep is far from "understood". In fact, that goes against the very core of the Randi Skeptics beliefs. Science is about what is not understood, an ongoing quest of questioning. To say that it is understood and ... that is all there is to it ... is to contradict the very ethos of the Randi Skeptic Fanatic; it's so ... so ... Absurd!

For example, the classification of the beta, alpha, theta, and delta states are just that: classifications. They are almost-arbitrary categories derived from statistical analysis of brainwave studies. This does not make them beta, alpha, theta, and delta waves, just as descriptions of gravity are not the same as gravity. Besides, the brain actually produces a combination of these "states", in varying degrees, in different parts of the brain. Someone with a high beta in the temporal lobe and strong, coherent delta wave is probably much more rational than someone with wild beta and some alpha waves running amok, pretending to be logical and rational when he is in fact, anything but.

Damn it! I also have to do a pre-emptive strike. If you give me this 'I just follow my beliefs because I know they are right' bullshit, I will take you as a fool and so will any other logical (read: not stupid) person will as well.

Damn, I shouldn't ramble so.

You "have" to? Perhaps someone has been missing out on the magic of sleep and so he rambles on. Maybe some cookie and a glass of milk before bed...

:D

PrimaelGen Project

[Jack]

Question: Shouldn't this topic be in idle chatter or somewhere like that?

[makidas]

Question: Shouldn't this topic be in idle chatter or somewhere like that?

Well, it was started with good intentions, I posted some links for some feminizing magic, as always people just "have" to start shit though. Like so many other threads this has gotten out of hand and way off topic (but not really).

[MikeWulf]

Hey, don't see me completely emotional. It simply gets to me when people do not share my beliefs without proper grounds.








(still nothing magical about sleep)

[sandy82]

.
Mike, no offense intended. Astonishment perhaps. This is one of the most memorable lines I have read in quite some time.

I am guessing that you intended it as a serious, open, and generous statement of your worldview.

Hey, don't see me completely emotional. It simply gets to me when people do not share my beliefs without proper grounds.

.

[Red_Gambit]

Here's what I think about Magic, Randy and his American Sceptics Association.

First of all, I think it's great there's people like Randy around. He helps to get rid of all the frauds and charletons there are in the wrold. But just because people have been proven as frauds, dosen't mean magic dosen't exist.

Think about magic for a moment. Let's dispense with all the Charmed, Buffy and whatever kind of media perceptions that it's picked up lately. Let's think about real, proper magic.

Magic is attached to alot of different philosophys. The most popular of course, is Wicca. Now I really don't know a great deal about wicca, so I'm going to stay away from that. But I'd like to present a different form of magic which isn't as well known in the popular media.

Taoism is a Chineese philosophy, dating back centruies to its percieved founder, Lao Tzu. Fundamentally, the goal of a Taoist is to gain enlightenement. He or she achieves this by discarding all attachment to worldly posessions, and detaching themselves from emotion, instead focusing on controling their minds and bodies until they can achieve what is referred to as their "Natural state"; which is a person who is completely and totally objective, who holds attachments to nothing, yet has an understanding of everything. This is a state of pure harmony with the natural order.

In achiving this state, it is said that in legend, a Taoist can perform many marvels by controlling the energy in their bodies. Theese can be something as mediocre as remaining in perfect health and ceasing to age, or as fantastic as turning rocks into gold.

So tell me, in the small chance that theese legends are true, what need would a Taoist have of a million dollars?

[MikeWulf]

They are simply feats of strenght and will. Not magic. I don't think they want a million dollars either, so why bring it up?

Anyway, what I meant before was that people seem to have all these out-there beliefs that have no grounding. Even when presented with contrary evidence they hold their stance because 'I just know it is real' and that sort of lame reply. It's also called ignorance.

[Red_Gambit]

I will say everything that you just said to me. I presented you a philosphy which claims to perform feats which are magical, and without a shred of investigation or fact finding, you dismiss it as "feats of strength" which has absolutely nothing to do with the feats I mentioned.

That's called ignorance.

[primaelgen]

I will say everything that you just said to me. I presented you a philosphy which claims to perform feats which are magical, and without a shred of investigation or fact finding, you dismiss it as "feats of strength" which has absolutely nothing to do with the feats I mentioned.

That's called ignorance.

He's demonstrating feats of strength and willpower ;-)

PrimaelGen Project

[Red_Gambit]

I'm pretty sure turning rocks into gold is not an act of strength or willpower. Aside from that, there are other examples I can site, including one master who made himself diseased to scare people away, another who heated an area of ground around him while it snowed, and one master who changed a childs sex so it could be an heir to a wealthy family.

As I mentioned, theese are all myths, with no proof wether they were real or not. However if any were real, it's foolish to say that somehow it's all attributed to strength or willpower.

[MikeWulf]

Hmpf. I was talking about real world examples and excluding myths...Since, you know...They are Myths.

[loony28]

:twisted: I happen to believe in magic. I have seen some things which leads me to believe. One example was my mother had gone to sleep one night and when she woke up there was crushed crackers all over her and we didn't have a single cracker in the house at that time. Now where did those crushed crackers come from? They had materialize out of thin air which according to science is impossible. It had to be magic that materialized them. So you can say that magic doesn't exist all you want but I'll go right on believing because I know it to be real. :twisted:

[MikeWulf]

Magical crushed crackers? That is just mad.

[Red_Gambit]

Once again Mike, you miss the whole point of my argument, preferring to find convenient ways to dismiss it instead.

Now just think for a moment. If there are myths that such things happened in the past, perhaps there are people who can do it today. Can you grasp that?

[MikeWulf]

Yeah, I can understand what you are saying. It's just that it has no relevance. I really think you need to ignore things from the past that have no relevance to things in the present. They are Myths, anyway. By very definition you should not take them to heart.