Personal Identity

[Linja]

What is it that makes you who you are?

-Linja

[gregi696]

This is a vague question. Are you referring to the Nature vs. Nurture debate? For those who don't know what that is. It is a long standing debate whether your genes or the environment you live in affect your personality and characteristics more. If this is what you are talking about, I think it is a combination of the two, though I think the environment you live in makes a bigger impact.

[sandy82]

Linja,

You can pay me my bribe later. :)

You are a deep, eclectic, fair-minded, free thinker. I suspect that you mean your question in a fairly broad way: in the opinion of person x, what makes him or her who he or she is--as a discrete individual. It's a very interesting question, and a tough one to answer...but well worth the thought.

At the same time, I think gregi696 has given an excellent generic response to what looks like a generic question. I agree with what he has said. I would amend it slightly and add a few more words. (What! Me! Add a few words? :wink: ) Genetics is more important than we used to think. Environment includes the lessons recorded before age 7-8 when an independent thinking process kicks in. So, in essence, gregi696's answer is entirely correct.

What do you have in mind?
.

[BobbyS]

In keeping with the past two posts, I'd agree that it's genetics, external influences and the levels of chemicals in your body. In fact, I believe as a result, there is no such thing as free will; this is known as determinism - everything in your life is pre-determined from birth. For example, some people are more aggressive due to say, a naturally higher level of testosterone production. One of these more aggressive people meets X. He is aggressive when X has a friendly joke at his expense, the person gets mad and torches his car. This person then gets put in jail for arson and misses out on taking up a high-paid job from X, if he had been more easygoing.
Or, for instance, you are tired after a busy day and cook yourself some supper, the 'choice' is a very spicy curry, or a pasta dish. After supper your partner arrives back from work, and wants to get intimate. If you ate the pasta, you'd say no - you're too tired, if you ate the curry, however, you'd say yes - spices are natural aphrodisiacs (okay, so it would have to be VERY potent, but you get the gist).
Thus, the first choice shows how genetics etc. shape destiny, the second how what seems a free choice is shaped by something else (even your choice of meal would have had a cause you wouldn't think twice about otherwise e.g. someone talking about their new fondness for curry).
These are extreme examples, I know, but you can see how 'insignificant' things can shape your life - what people consider free will is only what they believe to be a free choice. The fact that the curry person didn't have to have sex doesn't change the fact that he was going to.

[missypuss]

Hmmn Please dont get me started on the nature nurture debate or we will be here a very long time ..... !! I am of the opinion that , yes we all have our pre determined set of genes which to some extent give us our make up for the future ... yet what makes Johnny who has been in care and sexually abused all of his life; go on to fulfill a happy and fulfilling "normal" life.. wife kids and a dog/ But makes Jimmy also in care all of his life and sexually abused all of his life, consider suicide ,be terminally unemployed, and finally decide to sexually abuse little boys himself?? Its all down to nurture Im afraid chaps.... Its how we assimilate and process one experience to the next one (dependant on our stages of development) In order for a child to move through each and every stage of development and each and every experience they have they need to have containment from a significant person / usually an adult parent or carer .. if they have not been contained when experiencing the trauma of something such as abuse they may carry this in varying degrees with them for life.. neither dealing with it or knowing what it is that makes them feel so "different"from every one else and also what it is that makes them have all these weird thoughts.. next time your in a meeting and someone you have never met before brings up really strong feelings in you .. ask yourself if that person isnt just transferring some particularly strong and unassimilated childhood trauma your way, perhaps you remind them of there abuser.... !! I could go on but I wont!! Any questions ..look up some good therapeutic play websites.. Virginia Axlines a good place to begin..

[morrcomm]

That cunning feline missypuss posted the response I was going to make, and there's only a little bit that I would add.

If it really is just a case of "determinism," especially using body chemistry as one of the pillars, then how can anyone explain so many people being able to alter their body chemistry with hypnosis, say? Or being able to make physical changes (even if only small and temporary) in their bodies and minds and emotions sometimes through sheer force of will and concentration and belief?

Genetics and nurture and even body chemistry are all factors, I agree. But we're far more than just empty vessels, waiting for society or our genes or a bad parent at age two to come and fill us up to the brim with who and what we are for the rest of our natural days. We're far more than simple "meat machines" with biochemical programming within our genetic curcuit boards.

Or at least, that's my belief -- which I don't think is predetermined, since I once also believed in the opposite worldview very strongly... :wink:

[missypuss]

Nice to know we agree morcomm my friend :wink: Although I must admit there was nothing cunning about it. I would not be in the job Im in if I did not know at least a little of what I was talking about. And Im passionate on what makes people who they are!! ( And in helping people who may be "stuck" because of childhood stuff become "unstuck"..

[gregi696]

Hey Missypuss,
What you described in your first post sounds like an amalgum of Piaget's Stages of Cognitive Development and Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. :twisted: I've only learned several several times each. In my experience, I have been fortunate enough to travel quite a bit and this has really helped to reinforce that we as people are products of our environment. I guess it is possible that genes could account for differences in general personality traits among groups of people from different regions or even other countries...but I doubt it. I think that our daily interactions with people and even the media help to shape us. Since these are recurring they have a greater impact on us. Genes, though important are a one time shot. The genes you are born with are the genes you have for the rest of your life. You meet new people and encounter new ideas every day. These are not enough to drastically change yur personality, but over time you acquire traits and characteristics that are new or different.

[missypuss]

:P Yes I agree altho I found Piaget yawningly boring and whenever it came to writing an essay about his theorys I took five times longer than I did writing an essay about anyone elses theory/ Im more of a believer in the "Dibs" In search of self school of thought .. I know Piaget and Maslow helped shaped the way I work but theres so much more to it than theory and text books?? Dont you agree??

[gregi696]

I definitely agree that there is more beyond the theory and textbooks. However, knowing the theory helps with the practical appliactions. They make it extra-boring by repeating it in like 4-5 different classes.

[sandy82]

Everybody's got it right--or, more precisely, everybody's got a piece of the rightness.

It's a good time to throw the elephant into the mix. :) I'm sure everybody's familiar with that story. Two parts here.

First, the story itself. A group of blind people are asked to describe an elephant. One feels the leg and says an elephant is shaped like a tree. Another feels his trunk and says an elephant is like a firehose. A third feels a tusk and says an elephant is a curved and pointed weapon. And on and on.

I was told that story when I was five years old. I listened attentively, made a mental picture of it, understood why the blind people would come away with different opinions. And thus, a five-year-old understood how different people can have different points of view...none necessarily right or wrong (although the possibility for near perfect accuracy existed). A first step toward mental agility, arguing pro and con, empathy.

Second, the contrast. Fast forward 20 years or so. The erstwhile five-year-old says to a highly educated member of a different culture from a different place--after hearing how a minority is treated in that culture: "Yes, but picture yourself in their position."

--"I'm sorry. I can't do that."
------"Why not?"
--"Because [said in all seriousness] I'm not in their position."

- - - - - - - - - - -
The entire picture is very complicated. What makes us, as individuals, who we are? What makes us, as groups, who we are? Genetics, environment, superego programming. Human interaction learned nonverbally through body language, that human interaction and other factors weaving together to form a culture. The impact of the culture on the environment, on group behavior. Higher or lower values for certain inherited features or, possibly, traits--which, in turn, may lead to variations in sociocultural levels. Add a dash of serendipity with a touch of timing and and a sprinkle of coincidence.

"Sheer force of will and concentration." Excellent examples of human behavior. Where do they come from? Inheritance, culture, environment, seemingly unrelated incidents in life?

The last idea may seem not to fit. But it can fit exceedingly well. A trauma in early childhood, repressed by focusing on something else, an obsession channeled into concentration, memorization, problem-solving. A mathematician or physicist born of a childhood trauma, totally unremembered.

Where do cultures come from? Do individuals make cultures, or vice-versa? How can people live so close and be so different? Back-slapping Bavarians and dour Brandenburgers. Swiss trains that run on the minute, and, across the fall line, Italian trains that mosey by the day.

How to account for it all?

A quick addition. Morrcomm mentioned changing views. So do I. I think that there's much more to BobbyS's views on determinism than I would have believed in years past. I picture free will and predestination as two railroad tracks. They look separate from close-up, but as one gazes away from the here and now, they seem to fade together until, in the distance, they become indistinguishable.

[morrcomm]

How to account for it all?

Okay, let's all throw in a curveball and make this really fun now... :twisted:

It seems like we've been strictly talking about flesh-and-blood, measurable, physical or psychological building blocks. But if someone believes that there's any single part of who and what we are that continues on after death -- whether you call it a soul or a spirit or whatever, even if you reject any knid of organized religion -- then doesn't that change the whole equation?

How someone answers the original question of the thread, I think, says a lot about what else they believe (or don't believe).

[sandy82]

morrcomm, I think your idea is premature. I'll be happy to cite reasons later. In the meantime there may be others who would like to take part in the threshold question. For that reason, I will be glad to withdraw for the moment my own expansion to include culture as an influence on the shaping of the individual.

[sandy82]

How to account for it all?

Okay, let's...make this really fun now

Morrcomb, the two examples show that we both know how to play fast and loose. I'm not sure that either example advances the discourse.

What is it that makes you who you are?

It seems to me that your "curve ball" was always part of the original question.

In fact, the scope of the original question was the point raised in the second paragraph of the third post.

I'm also not sure what a "flesh-and-blood measurable...psychological building-block is."

There's more, but it can wait.

morrcomm, I think your idea is premature. I'll be happy to cite reasons later. In the meantime there may be others who would like to take part in the threshold question. For that reason, I will be glad to withdraw for the moment my own expansion to include culture as an influence on the shaping of the individual.

[gregi696]

If we look at cutlure as a defining element it is some what ironic because culture is a human construct. So if we make our culture, but our culture helps to make us who we are... what really makes culture? In my opinion, culture is a by-product of any civilization. For anyone who is interested, look up George Ritzer and "McDonaldization." He talks about how more and more the world is becoming like McDonalds. :roll:

[sandy82]

Gregi696, so much of what influences us as individuals is a human construct. Surely, poverty affects the lives of the slum-dwellers in Rio de Janeiro. Education is a cultural product and a cultural explainer. Quality of education has a large impact on who we are, what we do, and how [well] we do it. To me, one of the most interesting questions is to what extent the individual makes the culture and to what extent the culture makes the individual.

I hope the author you cite on the McDonaldization of the world is wrong, but it seems that McDonald's is a clear (if not wholesome) example of how people create a segment of culture, which then affects them and others in return.

If we look at cutlure as a defining element it is some what ironic because culture is a human construct. So if we make our culture, but our culture helps to make us who we are... what really makes culture? In my opinion, culture is a by-product of any civilization. For anyone who is interested, look up George Ritzer and "McDonaldization." He talks about how more and more the world is becoming like McDonalds. :roll:

[morrcomm]

Hi, sandy,

It seems I created a monster with that multi-quote PM from a few days back!... :wink:

Morrcomb, the two examples show that we both know how to play fast and loose. I'm not sure that either example advances the discourse."

Really? I saw it as both of us asking questions and throwing in an enjoyable turn of phrase every now and then along with the meatier portions. There's no reason a deep discussion can't also be enjoyable, or even downright fun.

morrcomm, I think your idea is premature. I'll be happy to cite reasons later. In the meantime there may be others who would like to take part in the threshold question. For that reason, I will be glad to withdraw for the moment my own expansion to include culture as an influence on the shaping of the individual.

Why withdraw your expansion? I think the people posting here can easily handle discussing one, or the other, or both, or even take it off in another direction entirely as they prefer, depending on the ideas they post, the different experiences and perspectives they bring to the table, and the questions those raise among everyone else. You and I aren't team-teaching a class with a set syllabus here, after all... :P

Take care,

morrcomm

[gurlbidesign]

In the nature vs nurture debate I am firmly in the nature camp. Nobody raised me to be a girl, quite the opposite in fact. And I spent my youth climbing mtns, jumping out of a plane, riding a bobsled, joining the Infantry during Nam, later joining the Navy as a submariner just to prove to the world (and to myself) that I was a man. What made me who I am?? A chance alteration of the soup that made up my genetics? It was the 50's and Mom smoked and drank before (and probably during) and after my conception. So much for the physical vs mental (soul?) gender identidy. As to who I am as a person.....I think a lot is still nature. My father wasn't around much during my formative years yet when I started living with him as a teenager it was commented on that we were so much alike in our likes and dislikes and attitudes. Still there is something to be said for "product of environment". What we have experienced and survived is certainly a part of who we are.

[slavekaye]

Obedience...

[missypuss]

Yup I agree with the Obedience slant also Slavekaye... (Or at least taking the punishment we earn ,with a little grit and determination,so that next time we wont get beat because we made the same stupid mistake again....) :twisted:

[Mallic]

What is it that makes you who you are?

-Linja

I don't think it is a Nature v. Nurture debate. It has elements of both. But there is an overriding "you" in there somewear. Is this the pressence of a "soul"? I don't know. But I know that this "you" is both affected by and affects nature and nurture.

Nature: Some of you hate Macca's. Most of you have no allegies or are otherwise incapable of eating that cheeseburger. What is it? The taste? The fact that it is making you fat? On the flip side, there are those that eat Macca's religously (*raises hand*). These people could just have well eaten pizza. The "you" has made a choice. Smoking. Whether it be peer pressure or what, the "you" has forced your body's nature to bend.

Nurture: You might of been born next to a pizza place with no McDonalds around. Being thrown in prison might of changed your persective on life. If your a only chld or whether your a younger sibling. Whether you were brought up in a Greek community or an Asian one. To "you", some things fit, while others do not.

I think its something like a triangle. Nature affecting Nurture, Nurture affecting "You", "You" affecting Nature.

[morrcomm]

I think its something like a triangle. Nature affecting Nurture, Nurture affecting "You", "You" affecting Nature.

Mallic, I couldn't agree with you more. I think that's a great summary of it, too.

[dumpertaker]

What makes me me?

Well, the incidents in the past shape the person in the present.

[susandirs]

I think our identity shifts over time. I mean, at one point, being a senior in high school was a big part of my identity. When I played tennis, being a tennis player was part of my identity. When I was a phone operator, that was a big part... but it always changes as we grow and evolve. Who we are is always in flux.

[Patch_Winter]

I think you just majorly necroed a thread that's from 2005, which makes you a thread-necro'er, how's that for "who am I?"

[claymore58]

all things being equal,I think it's personal philosophy,and perception..
the inner dialogue you operate from,i.e. it's not what happens to you,but who you are in relationship to it.