Question about trance and triggers

[pmanbs]

So, I've dabbled around for a bit in the past and never really thought I went into trance. I listened to several different inductions from different hypnotists and I would feel relaxed. Sometimes I would even feel rapid eye movement as well.

However, no suggestions ever seemed to really work on me. The only time one seemed to work is when the file did the eye open test and I couldn't, but then I soon realized it was because I was previously told to look up and it is very difficult to physically open your eyes if your eyes are looking up.

Last night I read some good things about Lutz's Bubble Induction and found that Cal had modified it. I mistakenly didn't download the induction but downloaded the Bubble Induction Test. I proceeded to make myself comfortable, started playing it, and closed my eyes.

After about 30-45 seconds into it, I realized I couldn't open my eyes, and my limbs felt really disconnected. Well, I played it on a loop because it wasn't long and I really liked what I felt and heard it gets stronger.

During the 3rd time I listened through it, it was ridiculously intense. I felt like I was no longer in any control of my body. I knew where I was, could hear him clearly, but I couldn't even stray my thoughts enough to form a complete thought let alone move or open my eyes. I even tried again a 4th time as an experiment and raised my arm into a position that would quickly be uncomfortable before playing the file. I knew where my arm was, but it felt completely stiff, like even the natural muscle resistance wasn't going to let it drop.

That naturally has made me completely and unconditionally convinced about hypnosis.

My question is this:

I never blacked out, and always felt completely conscious even though I may not have been able to do much with it. This seems contradictory to some of the things I've heard. The trigger phrase didn't seem to set in (like I wouldn't ever feel the effects until I could hear the back track counting down to 1, which is after the trigger played a couple times). I attributed it to listening to the test and not the actual induction, but I'm not sure if the trigger should have still taken effect considering how hard I went into trance.

[WatDo]

Trances are never really the exact same thing from person to person. Though being relaxed is generally a common effect of hypnosis. It sounds like you went down into trance from the sound of it. It really just takes practice for you to understand how your body should behave during a trance. So keep trying and it'll get better and easier.

As for triggers those also vary from person to person. Like for me, they only work while I'm under trance. I can't activate them outside of trance no matter what. Other people can flip them on and off like switches.

[MN_FriendlyGuy]

I never blacked out, and always felt completely conscious even though I may not have been able to do much with it. This seems contradictory to some of the things I've heard. The trigger phrase didn't seem to set in (like I wouldn't ever feel the effects until I could hear the back track counting down to 1, which is after the trigger played a couple times). I attributed it to listening to the test and not the actual induction, but I'm not sure if the trigger should have still taken effect considering how hard I went into trance.

Your first posting in the WMM forum is unusual and fun, pmanbs - completely and unconditionally convinced about hypnosis.


I'm going to help you understand triggers by giving an example and telling exactly how it gets learned. Because when you know exactly how a trigger is learned, things can become exciting pretty fast.

One of the best examples of 'triggers' is the ordinary traffic signal - when the signal turns red.

A new driver needs to *consciously* process the visual cue and then *consciously* respond.

They see the signal turn red.
Then, they deliberately think through the experience of stepping on the brake - using the right amount of pressure on the brake pedal to safely stop in the right spot.

And each time this trigger-and-response combination is repeated, the mind learns it a little better - a little stronger. Eventually, the habit of responding to a red light becomes automatic.

Some folks learn automatic responses faster than others. Especially those who consistent rely on daily routine - like making the bed each morning, and brushing teeth just before going to sleep.

I hope this response assures you. It takes time to learn triggers. Many times, it's necessary to practice.

- Listen to the trigger (experience it)

- Then, *consciously* do the behavior that you wish to become automatic.

- Repeat

And maybe as you brush your teeth, or make your bed, you'll feel excitement about your trigger growing stronger.

[pmanbs]

Thanks for your example FriendlyGuy!


To better understand: Are you saying that in order for the trigger to work, one has to consciously make the effort to act upon the trigger when they hear it? And then through repetition, it becomes a subconscious action? How is this different then from operand conditioning?

Also, how does suggestion play into this? I was under the impression the point of making suggestions during a trance was so the subject would subconsciously do them without even consciously realizing it.

[MN_FriendlyGuy]

Thanks for the follow-up question, pmanbs. Let's start with:

- How does suggestion play into this?

Suggestions are an artform. Trance is incidental.

Suggestions are an artform because our lives gravitate toward sensory stimulation. Without any conscious effort, our lives move toward and become shaped by past sensory experiences, current sensory feedback, and desired (future) states.

I could put you into a deep trance and then command: YOU'RE GOING TO GO TO MY FAVORITE RESTAURANT.

But, it's more effective to describe tasty foods - one after another, especially when you're feeling hungry... and then give the restaurant's address. And trance is incidental to that suggestion, isn't it?


- I can remind you about favorite aromas and tastes you've enjoyed in the past.

- Your current sense of hunger feels uncomfortable.

- It's unnecessary for me to tell how good it feels to be comfortably full after enjoying a tasty meal.

You also asked:

- Are you saying that in order for the trigger to work, one has to consciously make the effort to act upon the trigger when they hear it? And then through repetition, it becomes a subconscious action? How is this different then from operand conditioning?

Your question about operant conditioning is excellent! It's excellent because it shows you understand.

Yes, it takes time and reinforcement for newly-learned behavior to become habit. And, yes, it takes practice and reinforcement for a phrase (or stimulus) to evoke the desired response.

A year ago, I had the pleasure of meeting with a guy face-to-face. He was unfamiliar with conditioning - didn't know what it meant. So I showed him how easy and fun it is to be conditioned.

I asked him to BLINK. And when he did, I rewarded him by playing with his nipples.

All through the afternoon - the rest of our time together - I kept coming back to it; inviting him to BLINK.

I showed him how he could blink even with eyes closed; how he could blink while standing across the room from me.

What he's unaware of... this is the start of obedience training. He's unaware he's being conditioned to obey.

He gets rewarded for following a simple instruction.

The difference between classical conditioning and operant conditioning is trivial, especially for those who have the fortune of finding out they like both types!

[ProfessorPig]

Thanks for the follow-up question, pmanbs. Let's start with:

- How does suggestion play into this?

Suggestions are an artform. Trance is incidental.

Suggestions are an artform because our lives gravitate toward sensory stimulation. Without any conscious effort, our lives move toward and become shaped by past sensory experiences, current sensory feedback, and desired (future) states.

I could put you into a deep trance and then command: YOU'RE GOING TO GO TO MY FAVORITE RESTAURANT.

But, it's more effective to describe tasty foods - one after another, especially when you're feeling hungry... and then give the restaurant's address. And trance is incidental to that suggestion, isn't it?


- I can remind you about favorite aromas and tastes you've enjoyed in the past.

- Your current sense of hunger feels uncomfortable.

- It's unnecessary for me to tell how good it feels to be comfortably full after enjoying a tasty meal.

You also asked:

- Are you saying that in order for the trigger to work, one has to consciously make the effort to act upon the trigger when they hear it? And then through repetition, it becomes a subconscious action? How is this different then from operand conditioning?

Your question about operant conditioning is excellent! It's excellent because it shows you understand.

Yes, it takes time and reinforcement for newly-learned behavior to become habit. And, yes, it takes practice and reinforcement for a phrase (or stimulus) to evoke the desired response.

A year ago, I had the pleasure of meeting with a guy face-to-face. He was unfamiliar with conditioning - didn't know what it meant. So I showed him how easy and fun it is to be conditioned.

I asked him to BLINK. And when he did, I rewarded him by playing with his nipples.

All through the afternoon - the rest of our time together - I kept coming back to it; inviting him to BLINK.

I showed him how he could blink even with eyes closed; how he could blink while standing across the room from me.

What he's unaware of... this is the start of obedience training. He's unaware he's being conditioned to obey.

He gets rewarded for following a simple instruction.

The difference between classical conditioning and operant conditioning is trivial, especially for those who have the fortune of finding out they like both types!

this is by far the best explanation of what makes good hypnosis good.

[Alien4420]

Also, how does suggestion play into this? I was under the impression the point of making suggestions during a trance was so the subject would subconsciously do them without even consciously realizing it.

Not necessarily. If there's no command for amnesia, you can remember suggestions consciously and be aware of what happens when your subconscious kicks and carries them out. For example, some self-triggers work that way -- you do something and then the programmed behavior occurs.

For whatever reason, I'm someone for whom triggers work amazingly well -- they can be programmed in in one session and I'll still respond to them years later. (Wish I could do that with everything.) But other types of suggestion don't always take that firmly, and then I've found that if I remember the suggestion consciously it occurs. It's like when you start remembering something you did years ago, and as you focus on it, the memory comes back. So I suspect you could use this to elicit and reinforce the triggers. And also, with time, you might get in the habit of responding automatically to triggers in general. The subconscious or forgotten ones can be a real surprise. For a long time I found myself doing something every time I walked past a mirror, and realized it had been suggested to me in a file I'd listened to a few times that had mostly worn off with time.