Isn't hypnosis a bit of a Morton's Fork/Catch-22?

[matthewj]

For hypnosis to work, the subject has to desire the change present in the file or script. If the subject does not desire the change or is indifferent to it, the change will not take effect. However, if the subject does desire the change, they can simply make the change themselves without the help of hypnosis. In that case, hypnosis is either needless or useless. One could state that it is a complete waste of time. Also, it seems to imply that the subject is too mentally weak to effect personal change by themselves.

[zapnosis]

Nice try, but you're assuming way too much there. There is a lot more to human behaviour than just will.

Z

[matthewj]

Please explain.

[zapnosis]

OK, there is the conscious mind and the subconscious mind. The conscious mind occupies itself with what you are thinking about at the time. It analyses information, works things out, mulls over, ponders and does all forms of "thinking." We have a degree of control over the conscious mind, for the purposes of this discussion, but it is prone to suggestion and can be distracted.

The subconscious mind, as far as I know, does not think at all. It stores information that defines you as an individual, old memories and traces of memories. Things you have felt and what you associate with those feelings. It is the subconscious that means that you can focus all your attention on a task or experience, but still "be you." It is slow to respond to new information and we have very little, if any, control over it.

How the subconscious affects the conscious... well, I guess that's pretty complicated. I haven't studied this stuff formally so I only have my own experiences to go on, but I do have experience. The way I would explain what I have observed is to say that the subconscious provides the outline of thoughts for the conscious mind. It sets the mood. It chooses the wallpaper. The conscious mind then fills in the details with whatever you are thinking about at the time.

This would explain why some people are always cheerful, even when they aren't having a great day or whatever. And some people are always gloomy, even if they have every reason to be happy. People can become obsessed, a basic concept or way of thinking takes over the subconscious. I know a guy who used to be in the army and every other sentence he says includes some reference to the army or the war he fought in, even if it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. That guy's subconscious is still in the army.

If you're happy with your subconscious, then you may not notice this drip feed into your day to day thoughts... and that's probably a good thing. But I reckon most people collect some unwanted baggage as they go through life. For that reason, since you asked the question, I suspect that you are a young person... 20 years old maybe? Anyway, not my business.

The point is, hypnosis gives us some access to, and so some control of, the subconscious mind. That's it.

Z

[Alien4420]

For hypnosis to work, the subject has to desire the change present in the file or script. If the subject does not desire the change or is indifferent to it, the change will not take effect. However, if the subject does desire the change, they can simply make the change themselves without the help of hypnosis. In that case, hypnosis is either needless or useless. One could state that it is a complete waste of time. Also, it seems to imply that the subject is too mentally weak to effect personal change by themselves.

Have to agree with Zapnosis. Hypnosis alters the subconscious mind. Actually, the conscious mind can and does influence the subconscious mind too, but when one is in trance, the floodgates are opened and what would otherwise be a mild effect becomes a major one. So changes can occur and effects can occur that wouldn't occur without hypnosis.

For example, if you're straight, you could say to yourself "OK, I'm going to be gay today," and it wouldn't make any difference. You'd still be indifferent to men. But if you're a good subject and you listen to a file that makes you gay for a day, you'll find that men turn you on.

Another example would be the suppression of pain. You can say to yourself "I'm going to stop feeling my toothache," but it won't make any difference -- your tooth will still hurt. But if you're in a trance and given a suggestion to stop feeling your toothache, you will.

Another remarkable thing about the subconscious mind is that it can be programmed to hide knowledge from the conscious mind -- what's called "repression." So you can be in a trance and accept suggestions and be conscious the whole time (as you are in trance) and then be told to forget the suggestions -- this is pretty common. But you only forget them consciously. They're in your subconscious mind and you'll still carry out post-hypnotic suggestions. So if you were hypnotized to pour a glass of water over your head at lunch, you'll suddenly pour a glass of water over your head. It's a pretty amazing experience.

Also, hypnosis can produce positive and negative hallucinations. Only people who can go into a very deep trance can achieve this.

Physiologically, what we call the "conscious mind" seems to correspond to the part of the brain that solves problems, and the "subconscious mind" seems to correspond to older brain centers that program our basic behavioral responses. So in an experiment with a monkey and a banana, the subconscious is the part that senses hunger and the presence of a banana and tells the monkey to find a way to get the banana, while the conscious mind is the part that allows the monkey to figure out that it needs to use a stick to get what the subconscious mind wants.

This also means that the conscious mind is basically working *for* the subconscious mind, not the other way around. It can influence the subconscious mind but only to a certain extent.

Finally, one doesn't have to desire a change for it to work. One does have to allow it. It may seem like an academic distinction, but it does have practical ramifications, since people on this site sometimes listen to files that don't interest them simply for the blast or sexual turn-on of being controlled. Also, a capable hypnotist can change what you want and the more suggestible you are, the more amenable you are to that kind of control. While the official story is that you can't be hypnotized against your will and that you'll reject any suggestion that you don't like, that's only a partial truth.

[matthewj]

People can become obsessed, a basic concept or way of thinking takes over the subconscious. I know a guy who used to be in the army and every other sentence he says includes some reference to the army or the war he fought in, even if it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. That guy's subconscious is still in the army.

If you're happy with your subconscious, then you may not notice this drip feed into your day to day thoughts... and that's probably a good thing. But I reckon most people collect some unwanted baggage as they go through life. For that reason, since you asked the question, I suspect that you are a young person... 20 years old maybe? Anyway, not my business.

Actually, now that you mention it, have you ever been on Cracked? I read an article titled "6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You A Better Person" in 2013. I became suicidally depressed because I wasn't doing things like the article said (also because of some college-related stuff, irrelevant though). I started to figure, "If you aren't following the article's advice and actually DOING THINGS, you might as well either be dead or a slave to someone else who WILL control your life, because YOU AREN'T! You're just wasting your existence, you parasite! You have no marketable skills and no accomplishments! You're nothing! THIS IS THE TRUTH! OBEY THE TRUTH!" I got a job in retail in September of that year, but still, I really should be doing more with my life. I shouldn't be playing video games or watching TV, and now I feel horrible when I do those two things. I used to draw, which I talked about in a previous topic (search for artist or draw), but I wasn't posting my stuff, so I figured "why bother?" However, a book on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy states that "achievement = worth" is a highly toxic and erroneous belief, and I'm not sure what to believe.

Also, born in 1991, birthday is February 18. 23 as of this post. Oh, and I don't want pity. I want scorn, mockery, and/or contempt, if possible.

[Alien4420]

Actually, now that you mention it, have you ever been on Cracked? I read an article titled "6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You A Better Person" in 2013. I became suicidally depressed because I wasn't doing things like the article said (also because of some college-related stuff, irrelevant though). I started to figure, "If you aren't following the article's advice and actually DOING THINGS, you might as well either be dead or a slave to someone else who WILL control your life, because YOU AREN'T! You're just wasting your existence, you parasite! You have no marketable skills and no accomplishments! You're nothing! THIS IS THE TRUTH! OBEY THE TRUTH!" I got a job in retail in September of that year, but still, I really should be doing more with my life. I shouldn't be playing video games or watching TV, and now I feel horrible when I do those two things. I used to draw, which I talked about in a previous topic (search for artist or draw), but I wasn't posting my stuff, so I figured "why bother?" However, a book on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy states that "achievement = worth" is a highly toxic and erroneous belief, and I'm not sure what to believe.

Well, one thing I can tell you and all schools of psychology would agree -- you shouldn't get depressed over an article you read on Cracked!

Otherwise, look -- we're all caught between what we'd like to achieve, what we can achieve, and our own desire to fuck off and have fun. I mean, I should be painting my living room right now, but am I? No, because I don't feel like doing it and it's more amusing to hang out on Warp My Mind.

Well, I'm in my late 50's and I'll probably be wrestling with these issue for the rest of my life. It's just part of being human.

But look, the thing is to be positive! If you don't feel that you're doing enough in your job, try to get a new one. Go back to school. Do something.

Remember that our society sets unrealistic standards of success. We're constantly barraged by images of sports heroes, rock stars, billionaires. But most of us don't become those things. Are the people around you worthless? I don't think so. They work hard, they raise their kids, fight for their country. And most have pretty good lives and are respected for it. Hell, I can think of a lot of perfectly "ordinary" people I respect more than a lot of those sports heroes (doping scandals, anyone?), rock stars (how many kids did Michael Jackson molest?) and billionaires (just check out how they got to be that way, it isn't often pretty).

One problem with the current crop of kids is that you were overprotected in childhood and have trouble dealing with adversity. Throw that off. Have faith in yourself, recognize that life comes with setbacks and disappointments whether you're a dogcatcher or the president of the United States. The people who win are the people who take those in stride and soldier on. As Bruce Springsteen said,

You can't start a fire
Sitting 'round crying over a broken heart
This gun's for hire
Even if we're just dancing in the dark
You can't start a fire
Worrying about your little world falling apart
This gun's for hire
Even if we're just dancing in the dark

[xavious]

I want scorn, mockery, and/or contempt, if possible.

Can I ask why?

[Rotoscope]

I want scorn, mockery, and/or contempt, if possible.

Well you won't get any of that from me.

What you will get though is a recommendation to try to get out of your own head a bit. I know exactly what you're talking about concerning feeling either like you're worthless or will be perceived as such if you don't do A B C. It's really easy to get bogged down with that stuff. Most of us do at one point or another.

I've found that, despite the fact that it's far from obvious when you're embroiled in the mindset, is that one of the main reasons you're depressed and feel bad about yourself is because you're constantly obsessing over all the things you should be doing all the time. It drags you down, makes you feel like you've got a thousand things going on in your head all the time, like steam is going to come out your ears.

It's one of those self-reinforcing cycle things: you haven't accomplished something you want to accomplish, therefore you worry and stress over it, which makes it harder to get motivated to accomplish stuff, which makes you stress and worry etc. until one day you find yourself bogged down in the proverbial muck, and feeling like absolute crap.

Take this as a start: after reading your post, I'm not judging you for anything, nor do I think you're a parasite or anything else, and neither should you. You're a perfectly legitimate human being like everyone else.

If given the chance to take a look at some stuff in my life, you'd find lots of things I screwed up, didn't try hard enough with etc. The same is true for anyone else you meet. The expression "nobody's perfect" is such an understatement it tends to undermine the very point it's trying to convey.

I read that Cracked article awhile back when it first came out, and I think it has some really, really good advice. Though it can hit you like a ton 'o' bricks, and be misinterpreted if you're already depressed.

Take a breath, relax and calm down. What do you want to do. what do you want your life to look like. How do you want to make the world better? figure it out, and go do it. My recommendation would be to start with the artwork you said you never posted. Post it, let people enjoy it.

Always be doing something, anything to make yourself just a little bit better. Health, skills, knowledge, being a better friend etc. The list goes on. And always be doing something, anything, that benefits people, no matter how small.


Now mind you I've got a loooong way to go to properly follow my own advice, but from what little ways I've gotten along this route, it's like I'm living again for the first time in many years.


For a bit of clarity, I'm 22, and I've had serious depression and similar issues myself, for various reasons. It will get better, I promise you, and it starts by shaking off the chaos going on in your head, the sense of crushing obligation, of worthlessness, and getting up and doing something you can be proud of, and going full steam ahead from there.

Hell hang out some with the WMM community here, learn about hypnosis and maybe learn to trance(hypnosis is real, scientifically verified and far from pointless. The previous posters here really explained it very well, I think)

[Ladon]

"achievement = worth"

I think that the key in that article isn't that ACHIEVEMENT is equated with worth, but that EFFORT is. If you never try, you CANNOT achieve. My wife is interested in CBT and it is this confusion that I worry about. She has spent almost our entire marriage afraid to succeed in any area of life, and unconsciously sabotages herself in every way.

Though her conscious mind seems to want to reach out and make a difference in her miserable little confused life (sounds harsh but she put herself there) but her subconscious trips her up and then kicks her when she's down. As far as her subconscious is concerned, that's what she deserves and how life is supposed to be.

[Rotoscope]

Though her conscious mind seems to want to reach out and make a difference in her miserable little confused life

@Ladon I recognize that I know nothing about your situation, so I don't mean to be judgmental, but that does sound harsh, and mean-spirited. I hope that's not how you talk to her.

[Alien4420]

She has spent almost our entire marriage afraid to succeed in any area of life, and unconsciously sabotages herself in every way.

Though her conscious mind seems to want to reach out and make a difference in her miserable little confused life (sounds harsh but she put herself there) but her subconscious trips her up and then kicks her when she's down. As far as her subconscious is concerned, that's what she deserves and how life is supposed to be.

Ladon, you both might be interested in this article. Lack of appropriate self confidence seems to be a common problem for women and the article mentions some approaches that have been successful at addressing it:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/04/the-confidence-gap/359815/